Official Game Thread: Cavaliers at Hawks

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

You are underselling what Onyeka did as a starter lol. The most recent stint when clint was out he showed off the entire toolset 

Small sample size.. Mikey.   But let's take a look...

Check out the rebounding. 

Game 2 against Jared Allen...  4 rebounds. 

Game 4 against Plumlee  = 5 rebounds. 

Game 6 against Paul Reed = 8 rebounds. 

Game 7 against Jabari Smith Jr.   7 rebounds. 

Game 8 against Vucevic = 12 rebounds.   

Oh.. Game 8, Vucevic had 24/12 on 50% and 9 trips to the FT line.     Back to Game 2... Jared Allen had 25/14 on 85% shooting.   This is what you want to prop up???  Vuc and Allen are not even considered to be top 10 scorers at the C position.   But with No Clint...  OO let Mason Plumlee get 8 points.   That's 7 points over his average.   I joke... but if I'm the Clipps and Mason Plumlee plays 21 minutes and comes back with 8/9.. I'm applauding.

The hype train for OO is just that... HYPE.  He's undersized and when he plays against the guys I have mentioned...  He will get murdered.  Not to mention he's foul prone. 

 

 

 

[Mikey]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Small sample size.. Mikey.   But let's take a look...

Check out the rebounding. 

Game 2 against Jared Allen...  4 rebounds. 

Game 4 against Plumlee  = 5 rebounds. 

Game 6 against Paul Reed = 8 rebounds. 

Game 7 against Jabari Smith Jr.   7 rebounds. 

Game 8 against Vucevic = 12 rebounds.   

Oh.. Game 8, Vucevic had 24/12 on 50% and 9 trips to the FT line.     Back to Game 2... Jared Allen had 25/14 on 85% shooting.   This is what you want to prop up???  Vuc and Allen are not even considered to be top 10 scorers at the C position.   But with No Clint...  OO let Mason Plumlee get 8 points.   That's 7 points over his average.   I joke... but if I'm the Clipps and Mason Plumlee plays 21 minutes and comes back with 8/9.. I'm applauding.

The hype train for OO is just that... HYPE.  He's undersized and when he plays against the guys I have mentioned...  He will get murdered.  Not to mention he's foul prone. 

 

 

 

I don't care if my center is the one grabbing the rebounds vs the entire team lol. You also listed Jabari Smith who isn't his matchup lmao. Doesn't matter who rebounds the ball as long as the Hawks are the one getting it. The team's net rating with him is better than and they played some of their best ball and competed with the best teams when he started. Get a backup center in FA or Draft to play minutes in bigger matchups or a 4 to compliment O and Jalen.

[Mikey]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Small sample size.. Mikey.   But let's take a look...

Check out the rebounding. 

Game 2 against Jared Allen...  4 rebounds. 

Game 4 against Plumlee  = 5 rebounds. 

Game 6 against Paul Reed = 8 rebounds. 

Game 7 against Jabari Smith Jr.   7 rebounds. 

Game 8 against Vucevic = 12 rebounds.   

Oh.. Game 8, Vucevic had 24/12 on 50% and 9 trips to the FT line.     Back to Game 2... Jared Allen had 25/14 on 85% shooting.   This is what you want to prop up???  Vuc and Allen are not even considered to be top 10 scorers at the C position.   But with No Clint...  OO let Mason Plumlee get 8 points.   That's 7 points over his average.   I joke... but if I'm the Clipps and Mason Plumlee plays 21 minutes and comes back with 8/9.. I'm applauding.

The hype train for OO is just that... HYPE.  He's undersized and when he plays against the guys I have mentioned...  He will get murdered.  Not to mention he's foul prone. 

 

 

 

Also Vuc has career averages of 17/11 on the hawks all time. He torches them regardless who is center. Jarret Allen just had 18 and 19 REBOUNDS on Clint Capela. You guys care too much about height and individual stats.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

I don't care if my center is the one grabbing the rebounds vs the entire team lol. You also listed Jabari Smith who isn't his matchup lmao. Doesn't matter who rebounds the ball as long as the Hawks are the one getting it. The team's net rating with him is better than and they played some of their best ball and competed with the best teams when he started. Get a backup center in FA or Draft to play minutes in bigger matchups or a 4 to compliment O and Jalen.

That's the problem Mikey... the Reason why we have not sent CC out to pasture a long time ago is that he's the one guy who knows where to stand, who communicates on defense, and who grabs rebounds.  For a Center, OO is a poor rebounder and we have to rely on team rebounds to help out because he's out of position a lot.  Saddiq won't always be there to do what OO is supposed to do on the boards. 

As far as Houston... the one thing that should stand out is that there was No Sengun and OO only had 7 rebounds.  IN that game they outrebounded us 58 to 41...   58 to freaking 41 Mikey...  16 offensive rebounds Mikey...  We can ignore that because we won; however, we can't ignore that.  It sends the sign to people that  we're weak on the boards. 

 

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Also Vuc has career averages of 17/11 on the hawks all time. He torches them regardless who is center. Jarret Allen just had 18 and 19 REBOUNDS on Clint Capela. You guys care too much about height and individual stats.

The size matters Mikey...  Do you know how much easier it's going to be for Wimby to score on OO than on a legit 7 footer??  

BTW.. wasn't you the one who wanted to prop up OO's play as a starter??  What exactly did you want to evaluate that small sample size on???  Good feelings?  Gut?   I didn't know it was out of bounds to actually see how OO and his opponent played by looking at their stats.

I have to check to see if Jarrett Allen got his career high on OO?  Actually, it's his 11th highest point total in his career.  The 2nd highest of this season. 

 

[Mikey]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

The size matters Mikey...  Do you know how much easier it's going to be for Wimby to score on OO than on a legit 7 footer??  

BTW.. wasn't you the one who wanted to prop up OO's play as a starter??  What exactly did you want to evaluate that small sample size on???  Good feelings?  Gut?   I didn't know it was out of bounds to actually see how OO and his opponent played by looking at their stats.

I have to check to see if Jarrett Allen got his career high on OO?  Actually, it's his 11th highest point total in his career.  The 2nd highest of this season. 

 

An all star big had a good game against Onyeka. Same big basically had 20/20 on Clint LOL. Good players will get theres regardless. Onyeka is good. Lineups with him and Jalen have the best net rating on the team. Find the compliment (like Flip in the draft). Hawks starting Onyeak isn't a problem when you get a backup who can play some more minutes in specific matchups. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Bruno defense actually is rated 2nd overall on our team based on his defensive RAPTOR. Ahead of Clint and OO. Only JJ rated higher. That said, offensively, he's been getting his flight ready for a season next year in Barcelona with Garrison. -2.8 grade which rates 11th on the team and that's really bad because the others are playing extremely horrible on offense like Wes and Patty or just rookies.

All of our centers have been underwhelming on offense but Bruno is brutal.

His overall numbers aren't as bad, if you just focus on his last 12 games he's been in the rotation.

The 7 turnover game the other night impacted his offensive metrics. But he's shooting 58% FG - 70% FT in those stretch of games.

Bruno numbers offensively would look better with #11 playing, because he makes all bigs look better with the easy looks he gives them around the rim.

With JJ out, don't be surprised if Bruno starts to showcase some of the stuff he was doing in the FIBA tourney last summer, by taking and making corner 3s and creating offense off the dribble.

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

His overall numbers aren't as bad, if you just focus on his last 12 games he's been in the rotation.

The 7 turnover game the other night impacted his offensive metrics. But he's shooting 58% FG - 70% FT in those stretch of games.

Bruno numbers offensively would look better with #11 playing, because he makes all bigs look better with the easy looks he gives them around the rim.

With JJ out, don't be surprised if Bruno starts to showcase some of the stuff he was doing in the FIBA tourney last summer, by taking and making corner 3s and creating offense off the dribble.

The problem, his offensive struggles were there with Trae and without Trae. Bruno does some good things on both ends. He's unlike the other two is generally on time for his actions. He plays hard like Garrison Matthews. He's tends to finish the play even if it doesn't involve him. Offensively and defensively, you got to be elite at something. His paint protection is decent but not elite. Rim pro is decent not elite. He is our best at switching for the 5s. Offensively, the issue I see is the same. Just decent at a lot. Not elite at nothing. OO is elite at rim running. With Trae and playing a lot of mins, he really ran the lanes well even if left a lot to be desired as a screener. 

Bruno like G. Matthews is a good player but actually does his job but what is he elite at. In the NBA, elite kinda matters as a starter or even primary backup. 

His WAR ain't a zero for no reason and his offensive RAPTOR is a -2.8 and that's not for no reason. 

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The problem, his offensive struggles were there with Trae and without Trae. Bruno does some good things on both ends. He's unlike the other two is generally on time for his actions. He plays hard like Garrison Matthews. He's tends to finish the play even if it doesn't involve him. Offensively and defensively, you got to be elite at something. His paint protection is decent but not elite. Rim pro is decent not elite. He is our best at switching for the 5s. Offensively, the issue I see is the same. Just decent at a lot. Not elite at nothing. OO is elite at rim running. With Trae and playing a lot of mins, he really ran the lanes well even if left a lot to be desired as a screener. 

Bruno like G. Matthews is a good player but actually does his job but what is he elite at. In the NBA, elite kinda matters as a starter or even primary backup. 

His WAR ain't a zero for no reason and his offensive RAPTOR is a -2.8 and that's not for no reason. 

How are you using "elite" here?  The other day we were talking about "elite" meaning "generational" when you use it and that would be great but definitely isn't necessary for someone to be an effective backup.

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

That's the problem Mikey... the Reason why we have not sent CC out to pasture a long time ago is that he's the one guy who knows where to stand, who communicates on defense, and who grabs rebounds.  For a Center, OO is a poor rebounder and we have to rely on team rebounds to help out because he's out of position a lot.  Saddiq won't always be there to do what OO is supposed to do on the boards. 

As far as Houston... the one thing that should stand out is that there was No Sengun and OO only had 7 rebounds.  IN that game they outrebounded us 58 to 41...   58 to freaking 41 Mikey...  16 offensive rebounds Mikey...  We can ignore that because we won; however, we can't ignore that.  It sends the sign to people that  we're weak on the boards. 

 

Just picking this post as a more general response to your take with OO.  Just looking to say that the team has been better on both sides of the ball with OO on the floor than they have been with CC on the floor over the last two years.  Our best lineups almost all have him in there instead of CC.  That is why people are excited about him starting going forward because they believe those numbers will continue.  I think you are being too dismissive of him in light of those consistent trends even though I want to see him sustain that over an extended period of time starting games before I fully buy into that being real in a starting role.  

What I am already sold on is the idea that JJ and OO have good chemistry and fit together.  

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

How are you using "elite" here?  The other day we were talking about "elite" meaning "generational" when you use it and that would be great but definitely isn't necessary for someone to be an effective backup.

Just picking this post as a more general response to your take with OO.  Just looking to say that the team has been better on both sides of the ball with OO on the floor than they have been with CC on the floor over the last two years.  Our best lineups almost all have him in there instead of CC.  That is why people are excited about him starting going forward because they believe those numbers will continue.  I think you are being too dismissive of him in light of those consistent trends even though I want to see him sustain that over an extended period of time starting games before I fully buy into that being real in a starting role.  

What I am already sold on is the idea that JJ and OO have good chemistry and fit together.  

When I say elite for a skill, I am just talking exclusively the skill. 

Before he was washed, Clint is an elite rim protector and paint protector. Clint is not generational. To be generational. It has to be in a combination of many skills and traits. Like Trae is generational offensively on the ball. There is a lot of on ball actions, many of which he's elite at. You follow me?

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

When I say elite for a skill, I am just talking exclusively the skill. 

Before he was washed, Clint is an elite rim protector and paint protector. Clint is not generational. To be generational. It has to be in a combination of many skills and traits. Like Trae is generational offensively on the ball. There is a lot of on ball actions, many of which he's elite at. You follow me?

I get you are talking exclusively the skill.  Like if you say someone is elite as a lob passer, are you meaning they are a generational lob passer?

I don't think Clint was ever a generational rim protector and paint protector.  I do think at his best he was very good in those skills meaning one of a half dozen or so guys who in a given year could produce at that level but not someone who was ever going to be impactful enough to win a DPOY.  

As a rebounder, Clint will probably finish his career having finished #1, 4, 5, 5, 8 and 10 over what will probably be a 15 year career.  I'd consider him to have been a very strong rebounder but not a generational one.  Using your language from the other day, I would say he was a "freak" rebounder but not an "elite" one.  As I use the words, calling him an elite rebounder in his prime fits for me because I don't use it as a synonym for generational.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I get you are talking exclusively the skill.  Like if you say someone is elite as a lob passer, are you meaning they are a generational lob passer?

I don't think Clint was ever a generational rim protector and paint protector.  I do think at his best he was very good in those skills meaning one of a half dozen or so guys who in a given year could produce at that level but not someone who was ever going to be impactful enough to win a DPOY.  

As a rebounder, Clint will probably finish his career having finished #1, 4, 5, 5, 8 and 10 over what will probably be a 15 year career.  I'd consider him to have been a very strong rebounder but not a generational one.  Using your language from the other day, I would say he was a "freak" rebounder but not an "elite" one.  As I use the words, calling him an elite rebounder in his prime fits for me because I don't use it as a synonym for generational.

I don't think you can be a generational lob passer. 

I wouldn't label Capela an elite rebounder either. That's for someone like Rodman

Edited March 8 by NBASupes

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I don't think you can be a generational lob passer. 

I wouldn't label Capela an elite rebounder either. That's for someone like Rodman

Generational lob passers:

- Gary Payton

- Chris Paul

- Trae Young .... the goat

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Generational lob passers:

- Gary Payton

- Chris Paul

- Trae Young .... the goat

I guess. Wouldn't Nash be that dude 

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I guess. Wouldn't Nash be that dude 

Nash should definitely be on the list.  I think for Payton it was more about being with one of the greatest dunkers of all-time.  Trae is the one guy here to do it without an elite dunker - Kemp, Stoudamire, and Griffin are all dunk contest type guys.  Doesn't stop Paul and Nash from being elite passers.  GP was more of an elite defender than passer for me.  (He was a very good passer and scorer but not elite at either and definitely not generational in my mind).

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Nash should definitely be on the list.  I think for Payton it was more about being with one of the greatest dunkers of all-time.  Trae is the one guy here to do it without an elite dunker - Kemp, Stoudamire, and Griffin are all dunk contest type guys.  Doesn't stop Paul and Nash from being elite passers.  GP was more of an elite defender than passer for me.  (He was a very good passer and scorer but not elite at either and definitely not generational in my mind).

We all await with baited breath for the Hawks FO to get Trae his elite Dunker.   A guy that has JJ's ability to get into the Lane and Bruno's aggression on the rim.   We have to stop being so finesse. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I guess. Wouldn't Nash be that dude 

Not on lob passes

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Not on lob passes

I could have swore I saw a stat that Nash led the NBA in history with oops to anyone during this era. Then again, he had Marion and Amare

[terrell]

On 3/7/2024 at 2:10 PM, AHF said:

I have us with 22 losses against that hypothetical weak sauce schedule.  I get your point and agree with you.  All we can do is face the opponents we face.  But I'm not going to use a short stretch of games against weak and hurt teams to try to establish a baseline for performance without Trae and OO either.

11 games without Trae this year we are giving up 112.4 points per game. That would be 9th best in the league in scoring defense. Those are the numbers in a good sample size of games.

[Spud2nique]

Game time baby! Let’s go Hawks!!!! Friday night lights!