The Bazemore Conundrum

[Lurker]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trading Horford is beyond stupid. You lose him you lose most of your defense, offense and leadership. No matter how you frame it, it will never make sense.

Be real: Do you legit think ATL can win a championship with Horford as one of it's best players? If you think the answer is yes, then why and how? Give me a very specific way to do so.

And the answer is not Parker, or any old big SF.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's a superstar for us. We lose him and it's like losing the foundation of a house, it just fall apart. Him and Korver are our two most untouchable players in terms of impact. 

 

You guys really have to quit looking at surface stats, they don't tell the story what so ever. There isn't a single center that you can replace with Horford right now and improve. Not one. Go head, name the ones you think are better. We will not improve. Because none of them solve our biggest issues and the issues they do solve just creates other issues we didn't have before. 

I was with you until this @NBASupes

We don't have one  FOUNDATIONAL piece, all we have are pieces to a puzzle.  There is no KEYSTONEpiece on this team that will cause it to collapse (they are already foing it). We are still missing the crowning glory on top of our pyramid.  Teams aren't game planning their defense to stop Horford's on OFFENSE. likewise they aren't changing their offensive game plan to avoid Horford on DEFENSE.

I understand Horford's value, impact and skillset but let's not go all the way crazy here.  He's not THAT guy.

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, JTB said:

 

Horford is a good player but lets be real he's not a superstar or we would have went to the ECF back when Joe Johnson was on this team. Stop over valuing our players man. WE NEED A LEGIT STAR PLAYER....the legit star player will reel in good talent to play around him. NO player out there is foaming at the mouth to play with horford.

Horford is good but he's not the kind of player that others seek to go play with to win a championship

He's a legit player. He's not a #1 option nor is he close to it. That much is clear. He's more than just a good player. Hell, Teague is more than just a good player to a degree. Horford is a stud. Those aren't easy to find at all. Especially the ones like Al. Get mad at what he isn't is fine but appreciate what he is. This is guy that gives you 60% chance of winning in a good lineup. 60% chance. That's equal to James Harden. Only ones with better percentages are Davis, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, Duncan, Leonard and Curry. That's pretty damn amazing if you ask me. 

[JTB]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Name one? 

I can name them all. The issues will be clear as night.

 

Name Cousins, I can tell you why not. 

Name Drummond, I can tell you why not. 

Name any damn center. Anyone. Name them all. 

Paul George said it best, Horford has the most complete skill-set of any big man. You might want 20 points per a game and more rebounds but what he does for this offense and defense isn't just going to show up on a stat sheet. That's why I am adamant v. trading Horford. Him and Bud represent everything that embodies Atlanta. 

SMH....we will see

So after we give horford his max deal and we are in the same position in next 3 years whats your excuse then?

I don't care what Paul George said he's not apart of this organization and even if Horford is as good as you may want to believe you are crazy to think that other star and general good talent is going to want to come play with horford and thats the biggest issue. Keeping horford ties money into Sap and AL and eventually Teague. So thats your BIG 3 and you think Horford is the ring leader that is going to push us over the top?

When we need someone to start dropping points Horford is going to do that?

When we need to attract other star and good role players via free agency Horford is going to do that?

When we need to make sure that we don't get out rebounded Horford is going to grab more than 6 rebs?

When we need that clutch shot at the end of the game Horford is going to do that?

SMH. Horford cannot be your highest paid player or 2nd highest. 3rd yes but 1st or 2nd no and that goes for Sap and Teague as well.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I was with you until this @NBASupes

We don't have one  FOUNDATIONAL piece, all we have are pieces to a puzzle.  There is no KEYSTONEpiece on this team that will cause it to collapse (they are already foing it). We are still missing the crowning glory on top of our pyramid.  Teams aren't game planning their defense to stop Horford's on OFFENSE. likewise they aren't changing their offensive game plan to avoid Horford on DEFENSE.

I understand Horford's value, impact and skillset but let's not go all the way crazy here.  He's not THAT guy.

Teams do gameplan v. Al Horford. They just do not do it for doubling him on offense as he's not a #1 option. A #1 option is NOT the only players, teams gameplan for. They gameplan for him, Sap and Teague. They do not not double none of our players but they gameplan for them. 

[JTB]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Teams do gameplan v. Al Horford. They just do not do it for doubling him on offense as he's not a #1 option. A #1 option is NOT the only players, teams gameplan for. They gameplan for him, Sap and Teague. They do not not double none of our players but they gameplan for them. 

Agreed but he's still not "THAT GUY"

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, JTB said:

Agreed but he's still not "THAT GUY"

We do not have "that guy". We haven't since Nique. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by NBASupes

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Teams do gameplan v. Al Horford. They just do not do it for doubling him on offense as he's not a #1 option. A #1 option is NOT the only players, teams gameplan for. They gameplan for him, Sap and Teague. They do not not double none of our players but they gameplan for them. 

I want specifics.

[JTB]

LOL Im sorry but you all baffle me with not wanting some kind of household name in ATL or only wanting a specific household name in ATL. Im so sick of it. Everybody wants a two way superstar but they are never available. If you can get a Blake Griffin at the least, at the LEAST people...you take those chances along with his superior offense and bad defense and hope like hell that he can help pursue other top free agents and maybe force some player to make their teams trade them to ATL like what Howard and Melo did.

Of course we need the role players around them but dammit we don't have a franchise piece! WE HAVE NO FOUNDATION IN ATL!

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We do not have "that guy". We haven't since Nique. 

EXACTLY why Im saying we need to get Blake Griffin or someone on his star level! NO Blake is not anything close to Nique but having him here could get us closer to adding a talent like Nique or a talent on the level of a borderline top 10 player in this league.

[NBASupes]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

I want specifics.

Defensively, they work their asses off to go under his screens. Gameplan. 

Defensively, they work their asses off to not lose Horford. The bigs have a lot of trouble doing that but they do that. Gameplan. I watch a lot of games so I know how these players generally play. 

Offensively, they try their best to swing the ball v. us and iso offense doesn't work well v. us and Horford is a big reason for that. 

Offensively, they struggle with the PnR, PnP and bigs getting the ball period unless their guards take our guards off the dribble. This is easier done on Bazemore than Korver even though Korver is a worse iso defender, he is usually in good defensive position while sometimes Bazemore is in Lalaland. They realize how hard it is to get to ball in the paint v. the Hawks even though scoring in the paint v. us isn't that difficult. 

Our bigs, especially Al, cover space extremely well. We cover more space than any team in the NBA. This is why Tim could come here and have a positive defensive impact while being horrible on most teams defensively. Sap does a great job playing aggressive cornerback while Horford is like Revis. He doesn't allow much and is extremely smart on defense. His defensive BBIQ is off the charts. Teams know this and gameplan for it. 

 

Our bigs can run the floor, teams know this and gameplan for it. Our bigs get down the court, teams know this and gameplan for it. A big part of our success is Al's versatility. Without it, Sap wouldn't be effective on defense and our defense would fall apart overnight. 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, JTB said:

EXACTLY why Im saying we need to get Blake Griffin or someone on his star level! NO Blake is not anything close to Nique but having him here could get us closer to adding a talent like Nique or a talent on the level of a borderline top 10 player in this league.

Blake Griffin isn't a winning piece, he's an exciting piece who is very talented on offense. That downgrade with get from him makes Millsap useless so what's a value for us again?

[JTB]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Blake Griffin isn't a winning piece, he's an exciting piece who is very talented on offense. That downgrade with get from him makes Millsap useless so what's a value for us again?

Again.....Reeling in other star players is the value in him.

We will get more players interested to come to ATL to play with Blake and Sap than we will with Teague, Korver, Sap, Horford...AGAIN nobody out there is dying to come to ATL with the roster the way it is and the roster isn't a championship roster nor will it be in the future if it stays like this.

Blake or any other household superstar name will change that but we have to give up pieces in order to make it happen. Simple as that.

[Lurker]

Teams are leaving Al Horford wide open on purpose, they don't respect his three point shot and never will unless he brings it up to 35-36%. Him shooting threes is causing less spacing...

[Lurker]

And working to go under his screens (which usually aren't good anyway), is gameplanning to leave Teague and Schröder wide open for jumpers as no one respects their jumper. As soon as people learned to go under on the PGs, it totally destroyed the Hawks offense.

[JTB]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Defensively, they work their asses off to go under his screens. Gameplan. 

Defensively, they work their asses off to not lose Horford. The bigs have a lot of trouble doing that but they do that. Gameplan. I watch a lot of games so I know how these players generally play. 

Offensively, they try their best to swing the ball v. us and iso offense doesn't work well v. us and Horford is a big reason for that. 

Offensively, they struggle with the PnR, PnP and bigs getting the ball period unless their guards take our guards off the dribble. This is easier done on Bazemore than Korver even though Korver is a worse iso defender, he is usually in good defensive position while sometimes Bazemore is in Lalaland. They realize how hard it is to get to ball in the paint v. the Hawks even though scoring in the paint v. us isn't that difficult. 

Our bigs, especially Al, cover space extremely well. We cover more space than any team in the NBA. This is why Tim could come here and have a positive defensive impact while being horrible on most teams defensively. Sap does a great job playing aggressive cornerback while Horford is like Revis. He doesn't allow much and is extremely smart on defense. His defensive BBIQ is off the charts. Teams know this and gameplan for it. 

 

Our bigs can run the floor, teams know this and gameplan for it. Our bigs get down the court, teams know this and gameplan for it. A big part of our success is Al's versatility. Without it, Sap wouldn't be effective on defense and our defense would fall apart overnight. 

 And this is what you believe is going to get us a championship?  WOW you think Horfords impact is that huge? Oh my goodness...even if this is all true Horford gives us no offensive impact in the likes of any star player and thats one of our biggest problems. Horford gives us no impact no huge upside to win games against elite teams. I don't give a damn how good you think horford is defensively unless he's stopping lebron, Lowry, or any other star player in the east at the goal this all irrelevant. I have watched Horford his whole career so let me update you and let you know Horford can get scored on pretty easily by centers in this league. Hell even Robin lopez went to work on his ass in the paint this season .

 

Horford covers space and then what happens? He gets scored on or allows offensive rebounds.

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And working to go under his screens (which usually aren't good anyway), is gameplanning to leave Teague and Schröder wide open for jumpers as no one respects their jumper. As soon as people learned to go under on the PGs, it totally destroyed the Hawks offense.

Damn Cavaliers!!!!

Edited February 9, 2016 by JTB

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Defensively, they work their asses off to go under his screens. Gameplan. 

Defensively, they work their asses off to not lose Horford. The bigs have a lot of trouble doing that but they do that. Gameplan. I watch a lot of games so I know how these players generally play. 

Offensively, they try their best to swing the ball v. us and iso offense doesn't work well v. us and Horford is a big reason for that. 

Offensively, they struggle with the PnR, PnP and bigs getting the ball period unless their guards take our guards off the dribble. This is easier done on Bazemore than Korver even though Korver is a worse iso defender, he is usually in good defensive position while sometimes Bazemore is in Lalaland. They realize how hard it is to get to ball in the paint v. the Hawks even though scoring in the paint v. us isn't that difficult. 

Our bigs, especially Al, cover space extremely well. We cover more space than any team in the NBA. This is why Tim could come here and have a positive defensive impact while being horrible on most teams defensively. Sap does a great job playing aggressive cornerback while Horford is like Revis. He doesn't allow much and is extremely smart on defense. His defensive BBIQ is off the charts. Teams know this and gameplan for it. 

 

Our bigs can run the floor, teams know this and gameplan for it. Our bigs get down the court, teams know this and gameplan for it. A big part of our success is Al's versatility. Without it, Sap wouldn't be effective on defense and our defense would fall apart overnight. 

That's just general NBA gameplan stuff for the entire team, that tells me nothing.

Please don't mention Tim Duncan - that's a guy teams game plan for.  He could go to any team and anchor a defense and offense even as old as he is.

[JTB]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

That's just general NBA gameplan stuff for the entire team, that tells me nothing.

Please don't mention Tim Duncan - that's a guy teams game plan for.  He could go to any team and anchor a defense and offense even as old as he is.

AMEN!

[Lurker]

Sorry Supes, but this season is proving even more and more that Al Horford isn't good enough to make THAT big of a difference like I've long tried to say, and a lot of last season was based on the element of surprise. If last season was replayed with the same players, I bet they win a maximum of 53 games and go out in the 2nd round, more likely 48-50 wins.

[benhillboy]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

That's just general NBA gameplan stuff for the entire team, that tells me nothing.

Please don't mention Tim Duncan - that's a guy teams game plan for.  He could go to any team and anchor a defense and offense even as old as he is.

He meant Tim Hardaway's spawn.

Question for @NBASupes, have you done any statistical analysis for Toronto?  They've beaten every contender already besides GS, losing by only 8 points in 2 games combined.  

Everyone respects their operation but they've seemingly been much greater than the sum of parts.  Why have they not missed a beat without Junk?  There has to be something crazy and surprising there.  I rarely get to see them as much as I would like, maybe you have.  I'm getting closer to League Pass because the NBA hasn't mastered flexing yet so we get God-awful Lakers and Pelicans primetime games where Jordan Clarkson and Ryan Anderson looks like the best players.