Crunch time benching of Dennis Schröder

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Good PGs don't grow on trees.  And with the trend these days seeing PGs scoring at a high clip, you better have a guy who can at least offset some of that production from the other side, with scoring of their own.  When Dennis had Collins and Dedmon in the lineup, he routinely found those guys on the pick and roll.  Dedmon with midrange jumpers.  Collins with layups and alley-oops at the rim.

Good PGs are born.. not made.  Prove it to me.  Show me a guy who was made into a good PG.   Dennis is not a good PG.  He's not unselfish enough to be one. 

 

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Coaches (good ones anyway)  value stops over points that you give right back due to unforced errors and poor effort on defense.  All of the little things we see add up to his paltry team stopping stats. 

Is that why we started Babbitt and gave major minutes to Korver, Moose, THjr,  Cavanaugh and Belinelli over better defenders like Thabo and Bembry?  Or is this a slight aimed at Bud?

[Peoriabird]

27 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Good PGs are born.. not made.  Prove it to me.  Show me a guy who was made into a good PG.   Dennis is not a good PG.  He's not unselfish enough to be one. 

 

Jeff Teague

[TheNorthCydeRises]

34 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Good PGs are born.. not made.  Prove it to me.  Show me a guy who was made into a good PG.   Dennis is not a good PG.  He's not unselfish enough to be one. 

 

You would have to state your definition of what a "good PG" is.  I'll say that Jeff Teague definitely was "made" into a good PG.  When he first got his chance to prove something in this series, you could tell that he had the tools to be a good PG.  In Teague's case, he just didn't have the drive and motivation to be this aggressive on a nightly basis.

 

 

But now that we have a PG that is ultra aggressive and has the balls to take a game over, it's now a big problem.  There are no other All-Stars on this team.  Heck, there may not be any other starting caliber players on this team, if you were to try to place them in the starting lineup of other teams.

Hawks fans want the perfect PG, instead of just looking at the strengths of what we have.

 

And this offense is totally different, with Dedmon and Collins in the middle.   Instead of a pick and pop . . or a high pick and roll at the 3 point line . . Dedmon and Collins will actually roll toward the basket, giving Dennis another player to pass the ball to.  Yet, people want to rip Dennis like he's Acie Law or somebody.

The facts are that in a season where we're supposedly tanking, and have very little starter quality talent across the board, it is unfair to judge Dennis on his lack of effort on a nightly basis.  When you're the focal point of the offense, and no one else can consistently score the basketball, you're going to have good games and bad games.

Had Bud left Dennis in that game, he could've very well won it for us.  But Bud's ego won't let Dennis play through whatever issues he has on the court.  This hasn't been the first time Bud has pulled these types of stunts, to justify players not playing.

Edited December 11, 2017 by TheNorthCydeRises

[TheNorthCydeRises]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Is that why we started Babbitt and gave major minutes to Korver, Moose, THjr,  Cavanaugh and Belinelli over better defenders like Thabo and Bembry?  Or is this a slight aimed at Bud?

Pretty much summed up the last line in my post.  Bud picks and chooses what is the "priority" for the team.   The narrative used to be Korver's "spacing" was so important to the offense, that we had to play him major minutes.  Bembry couldn't get consistent bench rotation minutes, despite everyone in the world seeing his defensive potential.   THj got buried.  Moose got major minutes, even after he started to fade.  And Bud's favorite son, Malcolm Delaney, pretty much got the chance to play as much as he wanted.

(( CONSPIRACY THEORY ))

Maybe the thing that upset Bud the most last night, was the fact that Dennis couldn't slow down Jarrett Jack . , the very guy that the Hawks passed on . . to sign Delaney.

[Lurker]

To be fair, even with all that I've said recently, the today PG is often the guy with the most usage, whether you like it or not like it.

[Jody23]

I think this thing is getting overblown.  One of the reasons Bud is a good coach is that he holds his players accountable no matter who they are.  Last night was a teaching moment for a young player in the midst of a long season.  It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last.  And Bud has done this with other players too.  I'm pretty sure both Bud and Dennis are past it and on to the next.  Bud wants Dennis to be the best player and person he can be and Dennis has great respect for Coach Bud.  These things happen sometimes.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I think this thing is getting overblown.  One of the reasons Bud is a good coach is that he holds his players accountable no matter who they are.  Last night was a teaching moment for a young player in the midst of a long season.  It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last.  And Bud has done this with other players too.  I'm pretty sure both Bud and Dennis are past it and on to the next.  Bud wants Dennis to be the best player and person he can be and Dennis has great respect for Coach Bud.  These things happen sometimes.

I agree with Thenorthclyderises...Bud picks and chooses his victims.

[Jody23]

44 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I agree with Thenorthclyderises...Bud picks and chooses his victims.

So when he benched Delaney and Taurean, it was for what reason?  When he's come on the floor after a timeout to voice displeasure to Bazemore, Dedmon or any other player for an assignment they've missed or a failed rotation, it's for what reason?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Jody23 said:

I think this thing is getting overblown.  One of the reasons Bud is a good coach is that he holds his players accountable no matter who they are.  Last night was a teaching moment for a young player in the midst of a long season.  It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last.  And Bud has done this with other players too.  I'm pretty sure both Bud and Dennis are past it and on to the next.  Bud wants Dennis to be the best player and person he can be and Dennis has great respect for Coach Bud.  These things happen sometimes.

But name a coach who deliberately sits down his best offensive player ( who is playing well offensively at the time ), just because he's not giving his all on defense, or missing defensive assignments?

When you rewatch the highlight video of last night's game, Bud took Dennis out when he sagged off the French PG, and he pulled up and nailed a 3, to put the Knicks up 7.  I guess that, combined with Dennis scoring 3 consecutive times down the floor without moving the ball, was too much for Bud.

Everytime he "teaches a lesson", it (( bleeps )) up the team and leads to losses.

[AHF]

Pop benched his entire starting lineup in the playoffs last season because he thought they weren't engaged enough.  This is not some revolutionary new thing.  

On Beverly, that is a red herring.  Dennis doesn't have to choose offense or defense.  We need his offense but he can and should do more on D.  That doesn't mean harassing the other PG 90 feet down the court.  It means above all just moving normally so you are in the right position when your man doesn't have the ball.  That alone will step his D up another level and it doesn't have to be so taxing as to neuter him on offense.

It is a false dilemma to pretend it is one or the other.

[Jody23]

17 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But name a coach who deliberately sits down his best offensive player ( who is playing well offensively at the time ), just because he's not giving his all on defense, or missing defensive assignments?

When you rewatch the highlight video of last night's game, Bud took Dennis out when he sagged off the French PG, and he pulled up and nailed a 3, to put the Knicks up 7.  I guess that, combined with Dennis scoring 3 consecutive times down the floor without moving the ball, was too much for Bud.

Everytime he "teaches a lesson", it (( bleeps )) up the team and leads to losses.

Let's not pretend that this is something Bud does with Dennis every week.

Also, when Bud pulled Dennis from the game and they both said something to each other while on the bench, do any of us know what Dennis said?  Has Dennis publicly complained about being benched last night?  You know, Dennis has said something to Bud before in the past that he shouldn't have and was benched as a result.  You know what happened after each of those incidents?  Dennis accepted it and moved on.  Appears he's doing the same thing here.

And the narrative that Bud doesn't like Dennis is silly to me.  During more than one off season since Dennis has been in the league, Bud has gone over to Germany to spend time with Dennis and has supported him during tournament play.  He did this even when Dennis wasn't a starter.  Why?  Because he saw the potential in Dennis.  And wasn't Bud still team President when Dennis was given that nice contract extension?

Last night happened.  Bud made his point and I think Dennis got it.  They'll both move forward together and Dennis will continue getting better as he has every year.

 

[JTB]

Goodness! Well we all have opinions so let me voice mines.

-First off Dennis is not the only player lacking effort on defense....Prince name has come up on this too though it’s been a lot less often, the point is we all can see clearly that there’s a lack of effort on defense as a whole and yes it has big reasons to do with the tank season. 

-Second I think we’ve gon over this before many times but  Dennis defense is horrible by lack of effort only. When Dennis commits he’s a good on ball defender. However Dennis true defensive mishaps or what he actually really does lack in is screens. He’s just too small to fight through them all out effort or not. Unlike @Lurker I only see Dennis off ball defense being poor based on effort and just not trusting his team...more effort and especially more trust in his teammates and the off ball defensive issues are fixed. But those screens ...yeah he may struggle with screens his whole career if he doesn’t gain more muscle.

-Third , I respect @Diesel opinion but I don’t believe the hawks are looking for one player to build around. I think that  ol school of needing a so called true point guard is not relevant today as most Pgs in the nba are scorers. In fact look at the wizards...wall normally avgs 10 assist a game yet since he’s been hurt they’ve been playing better without him in my opinion....anyways this team will not be built solely just around Dennis...it will be built around Dennis and whoever we draft with our top pick more than likely.

 

we need to lay off lil goldie just a bit. He has too much pressure offensively to literally be the playmaker on nearly ALL possessions and lets face it there’s not a bunch of Steve Nash’s & CP3’s just walking around the nba plus that’s not Dennis game. Lol and last but certainly not least Dennis was projected to to take the majority of the shots on this team before the season started. It’s pretty clear he’s the best scorer on the team.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Jeff Teague

If Teague was a good PG, why did we get rid of him and keep Dennis?

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If Teague was a good PG, why did we get rid of him and keep Dennis?

Please give your agenda up. If Bud truly hated Dennis's style he would have NEVER approved the Teague trade.

[nathan2331]

If Teague was a good PG, why did we get rid of him and keep Dennis?

Because Dennis has the potential to be better than just good. He's not hit his peak yet, he could end up averaging 25+ points and 8+ assists with actually good defense in his peak years if we add some more quality players to the team. He's that talented, whether he gets there depends on what the Hawks are able to do with the roster. I

This team is lacking in talent. While Schröder is never going to be a pass-first PG, he would look much better if he was playing next to actual starting quality players, not a bunch of rotational guys.

 

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

 

-Third , I respect @Diesel opinion but I don’t believe the hawks are looking for one player to build around. I think that  ol school of needing a so called true point guard is not relevant today as most Pgs in the nba are scorers. In fact look at the wizards...wall normally avgs 10 assist a game yet since he’s been hurt they’ve been playing better without him in my opinion....anyways this team will not be built solely just around Dennis...it will be built around Dennis and whoever we draft with our top pick more than likely.

 

 

I think that when you're trying to develop players, you need a true PG.  You say that true PGs aren't relevant... the question is what players have been developed?

Anthony Davis?

Karl Townes?

Wiggins?

Embiid?

Do you think that these guys are all that they should be right now?

Sure we see Westbrook, Walls, Kimba and say... pure PGs are unneeded... And I will say that these guys have some pure PG skills too.  You don't have to go all Andre Miller, but you do need to be able to set up other players.   What you don't want is to be a SG playing PG.. because you don't have the acumen or the want to make another player better. 

[NBASupes]

Dennis ain't a SG playing PG. Dennis is a PnR PG who don't run an offense well and isn't all that consistent. 

[bleachkit]

The one thing that is good about tanking is there is no need to coddle anyone for any reason. Anybody who is not going to play the right way can kick rocks.

[rd79]

I won't actively take part in this (and such) discussion(s any more) but I have a litte fun fact which could make some here smile a bit.

If I'm not totally mistaken, conditions for Dennis' $2M/year incentives are: reach the finals or become part of an NBA all defensive team...
So he technically might have signed a $70M deal but will never see more than $62M.
If I were Dennis I would kick myself once a week for that and would also give Bud (who gave hin that contract) a kick to the nuts once in a while... Maybe "once in a while" happened to be recently 

Edited December 12, 2017 by rd79