The Tank Thread

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Past 16 years... 0% of the top 4 picks have won their first championship with the team that drafted them...  16 years....  You can be as bad as you want to be.. but not Dwight, Not Bron, Not Melo, Not KD, Not Wall, Not Westbrook have won their first championship with the team that drafted them... SO.. you believe that we go out and pick up Donic and 3-4 years later we'd be getting the trophy???

I'm laughing.

 

I would prefer Ayton or Bamba but no, even we great trades and drafting, it's unlikely we are contending with 21-22 yos. Unless one is on another level. 

[noble]

44 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am a believer that great drafting makes a great team. I do see what KB21 would like but I understand, you can't miss when you are going with the Detriot method. When we had Horford who was a tier 1 player. We needed to get another tier 1 but someone who's a #1 option. When we missed on a trade for Steph Curry for Josh Smith because GS decline it was strike one. When we missed on drafting Giannis when Ferry wanted him was strike 2. When Brooklyn made the playoffs and took the #11 pick to #15 where the draft was a 13 man draft and we were going to draft Devin Booker was strike three. 

 

You can't afford to miss when you are so as we were. We had our tier 1 player in Horford. We needed an elite #1 option type to make us a legit contender. We failed when Al left. It happens. It happened to Cleveland when LeBron left. It is what it is. We had to rebuild. No way we were making the playoffs this year if Sap came back. I am watching him in Denver and he looks a step slower right now. Like we did with Smoove, we got out, right on time. It's okay. It happens. 

We made the best possible decision. That's okay. 

This is what I have been saying too. We were already on a downward slope when Horford left and we couldn't get pieces to go with him when we had him. We made the playoffs, but we never had that ONE guy that would be a difference maker. Once Horford left and we started missing on other FAs the only scenario would be to rebuild.

I think the major difference between the "Pro Tankers" as KB and Brazil calls them and those on the other side is many of the "pro tankers" weren't happy with just watching a decent team that was going to make the playoffs but was never going to win a ring. It isn't that any of us want to see a bad team for a long duration, I think we all can agree on that there. What the hope is that one day in our lifetimes we get to see Atlanta as the NBA champs.

There are ZERO guarantees. We could make the playoffs in as short as next year or in 2 years, or we could be terrible for a longer duration. So to KB, you are so fatalistic to think with a good draft pick, a solid move or 2 in FA, and development of what we have, we wouldn't make the playoffs sooner than you think. Could we be stuck? Sure, but I would argue we were stuck before too. You can't honestly tell me you thought this team had a shot at a championship in the last few years.

Like I said it isn't that we are all pro-tank or whatever. We are hoping we get a chance at a ring. To do that you need talent, real talent, game changing talent. The team thing might be fun to watch, but without a Superstar, it is nothing more than fodder.

How you don't see that all of your "evidence" you give all had Superstar level talent they drafted, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not saying support the tank or whatever you want to call it. I am saying you should support the attempt at getting a player that MIGHT be a difference maker for a team that has not tasted a championship since it moved cities. We weren't getting one in free agency. You have to have one to win a ring, this is not debatable. It just isn't.

[High5]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

I'm not trolling.  I have a very strong opinion that is backed up by a tremendous amount of evidence to support my view, and I will never cave to someone else's view on this.  There is absolutely nothing that can be said that would make me support the strategy the Hawks have undertaken this year.

It's fine that you don't believe in tanking, but your problem is that you ignore or intentionally misconstrue everything that doesn't line up with your beliefs. It comes across very poorly which is why you find yourself at odds in every thread. 

[KB21]

6 hours ago, High5 said:

It's fine that you don't believe in tanking, but your problem is that you ignore or intentionally misconstrue everything that doesn't line up with your beliefs. It comes across very poorly which is why you find yourself at odds in every thread. 

I've ignored nothing.  There is absolutely nothing positive that comes from tanking/intentionally structuring a roster to lose games.  Even if you get the generational talent, you now have a losing culture to overcome because you have accepted losing.  Look at the effect it has already had on Dennis Schröder.  He was developing fine when he had a veteran around that could help keep him reigned in.  Now, he looks like shit out there on the floor, and there is no vet that can pull him aside and tell him how it is done.

We have allowed losing to invade the organization, and we have accepted it.  That's how you build a losing culture.  See Philadelphia.  When you combine that losing culture with the developmental period you have to give these players you draft who are not anywhere close to being ready to play in the NBA, you have a process that will take years to overcome.  You have also likely signed away the best thing this organization has in Mike Budenholzer, because he is not going to stick around and suffer through the years of losing that the Hawks face.

[Packfill]

10 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

If you'd actually compared their stats before tonights game that would've been the case but since you don't care about anything I write and supposedly not stats I'm sure you'll bend it some way that it fits your agenda 

Stats say a great deal about what a player brings to the table, but they do not tell everything.  Kyrie is clearly the better player.  Look at it this way, there is not one NBA GM, assistant GM or coach that would willingly trade Kyrie for Dennis.  Not one. 

If Schlenk offered Dennis and Collins for Kyrie I think the Celtics would say no.

[High5]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

I've ignored nothing.  There is absolutely nothing positive that comes from tanking/intentionally structuring a roster to lose games.  Even if you get the generational talent, you now have a losing culture to overcome because you have accepted losing.  Look at the effect it has already had on Dennis Schröder.  He was developing fine when he had a veteran around that could help keep him reigned in.  Now, he looks like shit out there on the floor, and there is no vet that can pull him aside and tell him how it is done.

We have allowed losing to invade the organization, and we have accepted it.  That's how you build a losing culture.  See Philadelphia.  When you combine that losing culture with the developmental period you have to give these players you draft who are not anywhere close to being ready to play in the NBA, you have a process that will take years to overcome.  You have also likely signed away the best thing this organization has in Mike Budenholzer, because he is not going to stick around and suffer through the years of losing that the Hawks face.

See, this is the stuff I'm talking about. Dennis had the best 10-game stretch of his career to start the season, but now that he's had two bad games it's because he's been infected by the tank. If he goes right back to playing well then you'll forget you ever said this and try to find something else to use as evidence. It's very transparent. 

Also, I'm looking at Philadelphia and they currently have a winning record, the runaway ROTY who is already playing at an All-Star level, one of the most talented big men in the league, and a fanbase that is over the moon with excitement. And that's with them having terrible luck with the health of their draft picks. Fultz could be another stud whenever he gets back on the court.

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, High5 said:

See, this is the stuff I'm talking about. Dennis had the best 10-game stretch of his career to start the season, but now that he's had two bad games it's because he's been infected by the tank. If he goes right back to playing well then you'll forget you ever said this and try to find something else to use as evidence. It's very transparent. 

Also, I'm looking at Philadelphia and they currently have a winning record, the runaway ROTY who is already playing at an All-Star level, one of the most talented big men in the league, and a fanbase that is over the moon with excitement. And that's with them having terrible luck with the health of their draft picks. Fultz could be another stud whenever he gets back on the court.

Wake me up when Philly actually makes the playoffs.  That's a terrible basketball team that could barely beat a tanking Atlanta team.

[AHF]

9 hours ago, High5 said:

It's fine that you don't believe in tanking, but your problem is that you ignore or intentionally misconstrue everything that doesn't line up with your beliefs. It comes across very poorly which is why you find yourself at odds in every thread. 

This is my complaint.  Just be accurate about the facts (Example:  The only team that won rings because they were already good and got into the lottery due to injury is the Spurs so don't claim they all did).  Just don't misconstrue what people are saying (Example:  claiming all rebuilding advocates say you are guaranteed a superstar or generational talent every year when people have regularly recognized the inherent uncertainty in the draft).

I don't expect someone with a a strong view to happily adopt contrary views others may advocate. I do expect they do not deliberately misconstrue things in order to shoot down red herrings.

[DBac]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

See, this is the stuff I'm talking about. Dennis had the best 10-game stretch of his career to start the season, but now that he's had two bad games it's because he's been infected by the tank. If he goes right back to playing well then you'll forget you ever said this and try to find something else to use as evidence. It's very transparent. 

Also, I'm looking at Philadelphia and they currently have a winning record, the runaway ROTY who is already playing at an All-Star level, one of the most talented big men in the league, and a fanbase that is over the moon with excitement. And that's with them having terrible luck with the health of their draft picks. Fultz could be another stud whenever he gets back on the court.

Don’t forget Robert Covington, who was brought in near the start of the tank and has now developed into one of the very best 3nD wings in the league. He had 31 last night. 

[KB21]

26 minutes ago, DBac said:

Don’t forget Robert Covington, who was brought in near the start of the tank and has now developed into one of the very best 3nD wings in the league. He had 31 last night. 

Yet, 5 years into their tank, they are only 7-6 in a supposed weakened Eastern Conference and could barely beat a tanking Hawks team.  All this supposed young talent, and they have a negative point differential overall and lost to the Kings.

So if hovering around .500 5 years after tanking is your justification for tanking, then so be it.

 

[Guard]

19 minutes ago, DBac said:

Don’t forget Robert Covington, who was brought in near the start of the tank and has now developed into one of the very best 3nD wings in the league. He had 31 last night. 

Yep.

They might make the playoffs this season which would be a good accomplishment for them being so young. If Fultz can fix his jumper, they're going to be scary in a few years. 

Whats even more ridiculous is that they have the Laker's pick in the upcoming draft which will probably be in the lottery.

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

Yet, 5 years into their tank, they are only 7-6 in a supposed weakened Eastern Conference and could barely beat a tanking Hawks team.  All this supposed young talent, and they have a negative point differential overall and lost to the Kings.

So if hovering around .500 5 years after tanking is your justification for tanking, then so be it.

 

The Hawks had a negative point differential and barely above .500 record last season after 10 years of being in the playoffs.  If that’s your justification for treadmilling then so be it. 

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, MaceCase said:

The Hawks had a negative point differential and barely above .500 record last season after 10 years of being in the playoffs.  If that’s your justification for treadmilling then so be it. 

Guess you have to choose...treadmilling or deadmilling.

[Lurker]

Letting it play out vs admitting that you're going to go nowhere with a club that is aging, pulling the plug, and tanking...letting it play out is honestly worse IMO than pulling the plug. It especially is if you have a GM that does not know how to handle managing it to where you always have experienced players that **play the right way** that fill in beautifully for the veterans that are retiring...but then again for me you are a mediocre team if you are not in the top 4 of the conference, period, end of the story. The top 4 teams are the good teams, the 5-8 teams are the mediocre teams (5-10 really IMO) and anything worse are the bad teams. 

So yes, I consider playoff teams to be mediocre. I'd be perfectly fine if the playoffs were contracted and making it harder to actually get to the postseason would stop 50% of this baloney.

[DBac]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

Yet, 5 years into their tank, they are only 7-6 in a supposed weakened Eastern Conference and could barely beat a tanking Hawks team.  All this supposed young talent, and they have a negative point differential overall and lost to the Kings.

So if hovering around .500 5 years after tanking is your justification for tanking, then so be it.

 

They’ll be fine, played one of the toughest SOS so far. OKC lost to the Kings too.

[KB21]

Only in some alternate universe is sucking to get a top pick better than making the playoffs.  

5 minutes ago, DBac said:

They’ll be fine, played one of the toughest SOS so far. OKC lost to the Kings too.

They will continue to suck.

[Lurker]

Ohhhhhh man, I really want Philly to make the playoffs this year and for Kyrie Irving led Celtics to be #1 in the East. I want to laugh so hard at this guy.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Only in some alternate universe is sucking to get a top pick better than making the playoffs.  

They will continue to suck.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Ohhhhhh man, I really want Philly to make the playoffs this year and for Kyrie Irving led Celtics to be #1 in the East. I want to laugh so hard at this guy.

You can laugh all you want.  It isn't going to change the fact that tanking is a poor strategy and AAU is bad for basketball.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

You can laugh all you want.  It isn't going to change the fact that tanking is a poor strategy and AAU is bad for basketball.