Collins has to PROVE more! Sorry but the clock starts now...

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, aali34 said:

The media in general undervalues John. He isn't seen as an efficent 20/10 pf who continues to develop his offense and defense. They see him as just a rim roller who Trae Young elevates.  Plus he missed alot of games so not many people have watched him.

So if you don't watch him play and just look at his numbers, wouldn't you be impress and over value him?

[aali34]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

So if you don't watch him play and just look at his numbers, wouldn't you be impress and over value him?

People may think he's statpadding on a losing team and isn't conducive to winning. Look at Julius Randle's stats for example. Thier career stats are very similar percentage wise. I don't think anyone would want Randle over Collins here.

[High5]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

This doesn't make any sense...There are plenty of players due large paydays like Jayson Tatum but there is no speculation in the media that Boston will trade him.

Because Tatum has been the best player on an ECF team. Obviously Boston isn't getting rid of him. There are still plenty of questions about John's contributions to winning, fair or not. 

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

Because Tatum has been the best player on an ECF team. Obviously Boston isn't getting rid of him. There are still plenty of questions about John's contributions to winning, fair or not. 

There are questions about Trae's game but will there be speculation about him being available in 2 years?

[High5]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There are questions about Trae's game but will there be speculation about him being available in 2 years?

He's an All Star starter and someone who can win an MVP so probably not. Make sense?

But I didn't realize initially this was the Okongwu thread. Maybe air this grievance in another thread. (like you haven't already lol)

Edited November 20, 2020 by High5

[Peoriabird]

37 minutes ago, High5 said:

He's an All Star starter and someone who can win an MVP so probably not. Make sense?

But I didn't realize initially this was the Okongwu thread. Maybe air this grievance in another thread. (like you haven't already lol)

He is also an all starter who didn't get invited to try out for the olympic basketball team and his own coach did not disagree with that decision

[AHF]

8 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Is Markkenen an automatic max.  Otto Porter got his max without discussion...was he worth it?  Is there much of a difference in production between Tatum and Collins?  Are there trade discussions all over the internet about him?  Someone from the Hawks organization is leaking his availability.  It can't just be writer making stuff up.

Neither Markkenen nor Porter are worth a max deal.  Tatum is significantly higher regarded than JC based on his two-way game and his team’s success.

All that said, I’m doing what it takes to keep him a Hawk if I’m running the show.

I don’t agree that speculation about JC is proof the Hawks are leaking their intent to unload him for lopsided bad trade value as reflected in most of those articles.

[Peoriabird]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

I don’t agree that speculation about JC is proof the Hawks are leaking their intent to unload him for lopsided bad trade value as reflected in most of those articles.

Didn't say they were leaking trade scenarios but leaking his availability.  Maybe you are right and its guys like Brad Rowland who continued to come up with is retarded conspiracy theories about Collins.  He does continue to insist that John is a center after all of these years which is in many ways creates the foundation of the national media's misconception that since we drafted a center, John is out.

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Didn't say they were leaking trade scenarios but leaking his availability.  Maybe you are right and its guys like Brad Rowland who continued to come up with is retarded conspiracy theories about Collins.  He does continue to insist that John is a center after all of these years which is in many ways creates the foundation of the national media's misconception that since we drafted a center, John is out.

Clearly JC is only intended to play a few minutes at center.  We started last season with freaking D. Jones at C and then ended it trading for Capela and Dedmon.  Rowland's stubborn narrative clearly conflicts with TS and LP's actions.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Clearly JC is only intended to play a few minutes at center.  We started last season with freaking D. Jones at C and then ended it trading for Capela and Dedmon.  Rowland's stubborn narrative clearly conflicts with TS and LP's actions.

He still has the fan base thinking John should continue to play center.  But let's wait and see what LP does before we conclude that the problem has been fixed

[aali34]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

He still has the fan base thinking John should continue to play center.  But let's wait and see what LP does before we conclude that the problem has been fixed

Perception is different than reality. Tim Duncan is known as the greatest power foward of all time. He's played more seasons and minutes as a center. 

Quote

When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the last 15 years.”

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by aali34

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

He still has the fan base thinking John should continue to play center.  But let's wait and see what LP does before we conclude that the problem has been fixed

I think JC will get minutes there but it will be as an alternative look, not our base team.  When we want to put pressure on an opponent's perimeter defense the idea of having Gallo and JC together is pretty deadly (imagine Dwight having to go guard beyond the 3pt line) or when Capela's ft shooting makes him a liability on the floor, etc.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think JC will get minutes there but it will be as an alternative look, not our base team.  When we want to put pressure on an opponent's perimeter defense the idea of having Gallo and JC together is pretty deadly (imagine Dwight having to go guard beyond the 3pt line) or when Capela's ft shooting makes him a liability on the floor, etc.

This is where I disagree with LP on what wins games.  Its not scoring.  What consistently wins games is defense and rebounding.  The stats were all there last year.  The Lakers were terrible at shooting 3's but easily won the championship.  The Houston experiment is over! Small ball should be limited to Bam like centers not John like center which means play Okongwu in those situations!

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 11/21/2020 at 7:40 AM, AHF said:

I think JC will get minutes there but it will be as an alternative look, not our base team.  When we want to put pressure on an opponent's perimeter defense the idea of having Gallo and JC together is pretty deadly (imagine Dwight having to go guard beyond the 3pt line) or when Capela's ft shooting makes him a liability on the floor, etc.

 

JC will definitely play at center in any game where we're behind in the 4th quarter.  Our scoring lineup will have JC at Center and Gallo at PF.  

The other thing that people need to keep in mind is that LP MIGHT be playing for his job this season.  This will be the 1st season where there's a little pressure for him to get the team to the next level, instead of just developing the young players.  That means if the young players aren't playing up to par, they can and will be replaced by the vet players and their minutes will be cut.  He can't afford to let the kids get him fired, so he'll lean on the vet players.

This is also why you can't rule out Gallinari playing at the 3.  If he proves to be one of our top 3 players, LP will get him out on the court by any means necessary.

[Sothron]

59 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

JC will definitely play at center in any game where we're behind in the 4th quarter.  Our scoring lineup will have JC at Center and Gallo at PF.  

The other thing that people need to keep in mind is that LP MIGHT be playing for his job this season.  This will be the 1st season where there's a little pressure for him to get the team to the next level, instead of just developing the young players.  That means if the young players aren't playing up to par, they can and will be replaced by the vet players and their minutes will be cut.  He can't afford to let the kids get him fired, so he'll lean on the vet players.

This is also why you can't rule out Gallinari playing at the 3.  If he proves to be one of our top 3 players, LP will get him out on the court by any means necessary.

I think you can safely remove LP "might" be playing for his job this season. If he doesn't make the playoffs he's 100% getting fired. And, frankly, he would have deserved it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 11/21/2020 at 7:48 AM, Peoriabird said:

This is where I disagree with LP on what wins games.  Its not scoring.  What consistently wins games is defense and rebounding.  The stats were all there last year.  The Lakers were terrible at shooting 3's but easily won the championship.  The Houston experiment is over! Small ball should be limited to Bam like centers not John like center which means play Okongwu in those situations!

While I agree with you about defense and rebounding, scoring ( more like efficient offense ), is a must in this league.  12 of the top 15 teams in offensive efficiency made the playoffs.  13 of the top 15 teams in defensive efficiency made the playoffs.  The playoff team that was an outlier, was Portland, who was 3rd in Offensive rating but 28th in Defensive rating.  And they barely got in.  

At the end of the day, it's about your Net rating,  Are you positive or negative.  14 teams in the NBA had a positive Net rating. The only one that didn't make it, was Phoenix, who were negative before they went on that run in the bubble.  The next 3 teams, who had a net negative rating ( Brooklyn, Orlando, Portland ), made the playoffs.

The Hawks were 28th in Net rating.

I think the new additions can at least get us to the middle of the pack in both categories, depending on who LP puts out on the floor.  YES . . we do need to stay big as much as possible, but I also want LP to at least have a grasp on which are his best offensive and defensive lineups, and when to play those lineups together.

Like, to me, a guy like Kris Dunn HAS to play at both guard positions, because he's too good defensively to leave on the bench. His defense could be critical in those mid-half stretches where the bench needs to either sustain a lead, or play defense to get back into a game.  That means if one of the young wings struggle, Dunn is a guy that LP can opt to.

[NBASupes]

13 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

While I agree with you about defense and rebounding, scoring ( more like efficient offense ), is a must in this league.  12 of the top 15 teams in offensive efficiency made the playoffs.  13 of the top 15 teams in defensive efficiency made the playoffs.  The playoff team that was an outlier, was Portland, who was 3rd in Offensive rating but 28th in Defensive rating.  And they barely got in.  

At the end of the day, it's about your Net rating,  Are you positive or negative.  14 teams in the NBA had a positive Net rating. The only one that didn't make it, was Phoenix, who were negative before they went on that run in the bubble.  The next 3 teams, who had a net negative rating ( Brooklyn, Orlando, Portland ), made the playoffs.

The Hawks were 28th in Net rating.

I think the new additions can at least get us to the middle of the pack in both categories, depending on who LP puts out on the floor.  YES . . we do need to stay big as much as possible, but I also want LP to at least have a grasp on which are his best offensive and defensive lineups, and when to play those lineups together.

Like, to me, a guy like Kris Dunn HAS to play at both guard positions, because he's too good defensively to leave on the bench. His defense could be critical in those mid-half stretches where the bench needs to either sustain a lead, or play defense to get back into a game.  That means if one of the young wings struggle, Dunn is a guy that LP can opt to.

I heard Buzz on RealGM talking about LP falls in love too much with Bembry but the problem was, he didn't have the player on the roster that made sense to use, Bembry was the closest 

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, Sothron said:

I think you can safely remove LP "might" be playing for his job this season. If he doesn't make the playoffs he's 100% getting fired. And, frankly, he would have deserved it.

LP really gets too much negative feedback on here. He literally won us games with his coaching in year one. Had some of the most creative actions in year one. He looked like a rising star. Last year, we completed tanked the roster. He should be back to his rookie year and even better. We can't make excuses all day for JC, Trae, and not extend that same courtesy to LP.

[Peoriabird]

42 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

LP really gets too much negative feedback on here. He literally won us games with his coaching in year one. Had some of the most creative actions in year one. He looked like a rising star. Last year, we completed tanked the roster. He should be back to his rookie year and even better. We can't make excuses all day for JC, Trae, and not extend that same courtesy to LP.

I agree year 1 he was so much better. Let's hope you are right and we see more year 1 more than year 2.  This roster has a chance but if we start seeing those wierd line ups become the norm again, schlenks has to act and act quickly!