How do we get another 2020 1st (Non-Lotto)

[nathan2331]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

I get that he doesn't want to ruin to many player's future by exposing them to LP but it leads to the Hawks not having a bench!!

Do you really think our problem is that we're not drafting a 4th and 5th player to fill the bench?

You're not making sense, these second rounders (that I agree we've squandered with Schlenk) would not make us a playoff team. The reason we've been trash is the fact that we've had to rely on Damien Jones, Jabari, Crabbe, Turner, Carter and other bad players for significant minutes. That was by design, we weren't supposed to be good.

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Good illustration.  Don started off as a GM with the #1 overall pick in the 1977 draft.  He selected Kent Benson at #1.  Benson finished his career as the #17 player from the draft in career win shares, an undoubted disappointment for such a premium pick.

The next year he picked George Johnson at #12 overall who finished #21 overall in WS.

You can keep going but all of these guys miss picks.  If you don't miss picks, it is because you aren't picking.

****

Masai Ujiri has been an outstanding GM but you can certainly see he hasn't optimized all his picks. 

He passed on Jimmy Butler in 2011 to take Kenneth Faried. 

He passed on Draymond Green and Khris Middleton in 2012 to take Evan Fournier. 

He took Bruno Caboclo to pass on Jokic, Clint Capela among many, many others who were better choices.  

I can keep going on the first rounders but the second rounders are no shock here either:

Here are his second round choices in order:

Quincy Miller

İzzet Türkyılmaz

DeAndre Daniels

Xavier Thames

Dewan Hernandez

Is that a murderer's row of amazing talent?

I'm sure I'm missing a pick he traded for or something but it isn't like anyone has a high hit rate on second rounders.  It is extremely rare for a GM to even have a high hit rate on first rounders!

 

TS has proven himself as a drafter to me.  It is the rest of the roster building where he needs to prove himself.

He got Timmy Utep 2 step late, Spree in the 20’s I think 24. He took Richmond 5th but Mitch was a good prospect but still. He got Gatling and Ty Hill in the year we got Rumeal, I think one before after.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, High5 said:

I forgot we traded down to 19 to draft Trae. And then the Mavs’ lottery pick somehow ended up at 19 where we drafted Cam.

Picks after 20

[kg01]

In my best Iverson voice ... "We talkin' about 2nd round draft picks?  Not a 1st rounder.  Not a lotto pick.  2nd rounders?  I'm tha MVP (of Hawksquawk)?!"

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

Do you really think our problem is that we're not drafting a 4th and 5th player to fill the bench?

You're not making sense, these second rounders (that I agree we've squandered with Schlenk) would not make us a playoff team. The reason we've been trash is the fact that we've had to rely on Damien Jones, Jabari, Crabbe, Turner, Carter and other bad players for significant minutes.

Guess who brought those players in to play a major role on our bench...You guest it....The guy you are tying to defend!

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

In my best Iverson voice ... "We talkin' about 2nd round draft picks?  Not a 1st rounder.  Not a lotto pick.  2nd rounders?  I'm tha MVP (of Hawksquawk)?!"

You keep me middle aged kg.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

In my best Iverson voice ... "We talkin' about 2nd round draft picks?  Not a 1st rounder.  Not a lotto pick.  2nd rounders?  I'm tha MVP (of Hawksquawk)?!"

Not just 2nd round picks but everything outside of the 1st 19 picks in the draft he has been lousy at!

[Spud2nique]

LETS GO BUD KYLE ERSAN AND THE BUCKS!!!!

 

i swear I didn’t do this with their all Nazi 1988 Bucks squad That team was a weird roster. Stevie baby Henson the later Hawk. Miss those days.

 

Giannis is gonna bully his way through this game like @kg01 does keeping squawk laughing! Shove it down their collective throats guys!!!!

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

Good illustration.  Don started off as a GM with the #1 overall pick in the 1977 draft.  He selected Kent Benson at #1.  Benson finished his career as the #17 player from the draft in career win shares, an undoubted disappointment for such a premium pick.

The next year he picked George Johnson at #12 overall who finished #21 overall in WS.

You can keep going but all of these guys miss picks.  If you don't miss picks, it is because you aren't picking.

****

Masai Ujiri has been an outstanding GM but you can certainly see he hasn't optimized all his picks. 

He passed on Jimmy Butler in 2011 to take Kenneth Faried. 

He passed on Draymond Green and Khris Middleton in 2012 to take Evan Fournier. 

He took Bruno Caboclo to pass on Jokic, Clint Capela among many, many others who were better choices.  

I can keep going on the first rounders but the second rounders are no shock here either:

Here are his second round choices in order:

Quincy Miller

İzzet Türkyılmaz

DeAndre Daniels

Xavier Thames

Dewan Hernandez

Is that a murderer's row of amazing talent?

I'm sure I'm missing a pick he traded for or something but it isn't like anyone has a high hit rate on second rounders.  It is extremely rare for a GM to even have a high hit rate on first rounders!

 

TS has proven himself as a drafter to me.  It is the rest of the roster building where he needs to prove himself.

Masai probably has the most insane hit rate with trades I've seen outside of Ferry and better than Ferry. 

He inherited Lowry and DeRozan

Raped the Knicks trading Bargs

Ibaka for Ross worked for both teams

Always trading and moving bench players like Lou Williams, Vasquez which was a terrible trade for Milwaukee 

https://www.raptorshq.com/2017/2/15/14624312/toronto-raptors-trade-history-best-transaction

Had some draft hits from one class. VanFleet and Siakam from a weak draft. G league development advancement helped

The Kawhi rental might be the GOAT rental deal of all time 

The Gasol trade was fair but Toronto needed it to be champions. 

They just made a lot of good moves. TS has a good draft record in the 1st round but his 2nd round work isn't good and his trades have all been losses so far outside of the Brooklyn deal which ultimately was a win for Brooklyn as they landed KD and Kyrie.

TS does have to improve a lot and I hope he does. His trade IQ is lacking.

Edited August 24, 2020 by NBASupes

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Not just 2nd round picks but everything outside of the 1st 19 picks in the draft he has been lousy at!

Oh, that's all you're saying.  Then I basically agree.  He's been good at drafting in the 1st round but his trades and handling of 2nd round picks have been questionable at best.

[Peoriabird]

Just now, kg01 said:

Oh, that's all you're saying.  Then I basically agree.  He's been good at drafting in the 1st round but his trades and handling of 2nd round picks have been questionable at best.

Finally!!!!!  Throw in a lousy hire as head coach to boot then you have Travis Schlenk's resume as the Hawk's GM but people want to defend him like he has been amazing!

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Masai probably has the most insane hit rate with trades I've seen outside of Ferry and better than Ferry. 

He inherited Lowry and DeRozan

Raped the Knicks trading Bargs

Ibaka for Ross worked for both teams

Always trading and moving bench players like Lou Williams, Vasquez which was a terrible trade for Milwaukee 

https://www.raptorshq.com/2017/2/15/14624312/toronto-raptors-trade-history-best-transaction

Had some draft hits from one class. VanFleet and Siakam from a weak draft. G league development advancement helped

The Gasol trade was fair but Toronto needed it to be champions. 

They just made a lot of good moves. TS has a good draft record in the 1st round but his 2nd round work isn't good and his trades have all been losses so far outside of the Brooklyn deal which ultimately was a win for Brooklyn as they landed KD and Kyrie.

TS does have to improve a lot and I hope he does. His trade IQ is lacking.

Thank You @NBASupes!!!

[macdaddy]

oh my god.  yes if we don't count Trae, Cam, Hunter, Heurter, TS drafting Omari is a horrible draft record.  Well we did get a 2nd round pick for him so it would seem like that would be a big win no? 

[nathan2331]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Guess who brought those players in to play a major role on our bench...You guest it....The guy you are tying to defend!

If Schlenk thought we'd be a playoff team with the moves he made last offseaon then sure, he was delusional.

But the priority for us has been developing our draft picks, which we've been very successful doing. John is great, Trae is great, Kevin should be better, Cam and DeAndre had solid rookie campaigns. Now that we have a core established, I'm looking at how Schlenk builds a winner.

To me now is the time to be critical of what Schlenk does to improve the roster because we're trying to win games now. Finding our primary ball handler in Trae is the hardest thing a team has to do, especially a guy responsible for half the offense on any given night.

[kg01]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Finally!!!!!  Throw in a lousy hire as head coach to boot then you have Travis Schlenk's resume as the Hawk's GM but people want to defend him like he has been amazing!

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... you just slid that one in there on me.

You keep your filthy coaching complaints to yourself.  You have no idea how good or bad a coach we have.

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Masai probably has the most insane hit rate with trades I've seen outside of Ferry and better than Ferry. 

He inherited Lowry and DeRozan

Raped the Knicks trading Bargs

Ibaka for Ross worked for both teams

Always trading and moving bench players like Lou Williams, Vasquez which was a terrible trade for Milwaukee 

mhttps://www.raptorshq.com/2017/2/15/14624312/toronto-raptors-trade-history-best-transaction

Had some draft hits from one class. VanFleet and Siakam from a weak draft. G league development advancement helped

The Kawhi rental might be the GOAT rental deal of all time 

The Gasol trade was fair but Toronto needed it to be champions. 

They just made a lot of good moves. TS has a good draft record in the 1st round but his 2nd round work isn't good and his trades have all been losses so far outside of the Brooklyn deal which ultimately was a win for Brooklyn as they landed KD and Kyrie.

TS does have to improve a lot and I hope he does. His trade IQ is lacking.

Masai is a great GM.  My point was that even great GMs miss on draft picks all the time so to disregard what TS has done in the first round and proclaim him a bad drafting GM because of his second round picks is insane - especially when the guy you pick as your example of great drafting GM arguably doesn't have as good a track record as TS.

You know I've been critical of TS's trades in the past.  I though the Trae trade was suboptimal (given the level of protection) but that ended up working out (both where the protection was irrelevant and given who we drafted).  The Capela trade is the best one TS has done so far.  That is miles and miles away from Masai's pretty incredible track record on trades.

But I'd also point out that TS has mostly traded to acquire draft assets so far so that you'd expect the players returned in those deals to be overpriced and of limited value on the floor.  They have been.  He has signed FAs with the goal of tanking and you'd expect those FAs to not be big value drivers for our W/L record.  They haven't been.  

Things are different now where he needs to bring value to the roster from both trades and FAs.  I think that change started with the Capela / Dedmon trades (i.e., the team was confident at that point in time that the tanking was done and it was time to start prepping the roster for next season's improvement).  

TS hasn't proven himself to be at Masai's level or even close.  But focusing on his drafting acumen, I'll say that TS has done an excellent job and that Masai's second picks of:

Quincy Miller

İzzet Türkyılmaz

DeAndre Daniels

Xavier Thames

Dewan Hernandez

Are all likely to be outshined by Bruno Fernandez.

[Peoriabird]

16 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

oh my god.  yes if we don't count Trae, Cam, Hunter, Heurter, TS drafting Omari is a horrible draft record.  Well we did get a 2nd round pick for him so it would seem like that would be a big win no? 

Still fighting when its been explained to you in detail?

[High5]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Still fighting when its been explained to you in detail?

That's literally you in every thread. 

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Masai is a great GM.  My point was that even great GMs miss on draft picks all the time so to disregard what TS has done in the first round and proclaim him a bad drafting GM because of his second round picks is insane -

You love to argue past someone.  Where has that statement been made?  And secondly,  the proof is in the results...Schlenk's team won 20 games this season.

[NBASupes]

If I had to guess considering the money this year. That the Hawks will end up with 3 1st rounders going into the draft and likely only have two by the end of the night. I think Aaron Nesmith is be the Hawks main target. Probably will trade with PHX to get him.