NBC/Ringer - Hawks Looking to Trade Pick for Vet

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Beal would probably be good with the Hawks but he's also a guy who's been in the league 8 years playing alongside another all star and they've never done squat.   I'm good with seeing which of our wings develop.

Another star who was often injured.   Also with no third...

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Cwell said:

I never understood the obsession with making blockbuster video game like trades just to get a name. I'm sick of teams trading away their future after finally getting some decent young talent, just to get a name......and end up with nothing to show for it. The levels may be different but this reminds me of The Knicks finally getting some decent talent out of the draft, just to trade for Carmelo. Then have nothing to show for it. The Magic make the finals, then trade for Vince Carter for no reason. Nothing to show for it.

I understand that you don't win without taking chances but damn can we atleast see what we have first? This team needs quality vets and rotational pieces. Theres no need to swing for the fences just to get another all-star at this point. There's not one trade out there that's gonna magically leap frog us into championship contention overnight in my opinion. I'm in no rush to get back on that first round exit hamster wheel we were on for almost 10 years

If that makes you sick... Just wait to see the team that continuously finds themselves in the draft and then when you finally get good talent, they walk because you haven't put a winner beside them.

[Sothron]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Atleast our guy has the excuse of physical limitations.  Guys like Beal and KittyKat should be ashamed at how sorry they are on D.

Ok, that was a low blow.  Sorry, saffron. 

I don't think Beal is terrible. I've seen him give effort when he was younger. I think he has so much weight on his shoulders to be all the offense that he can't give much on the other end.

And yes, Trae will at best case be an average defender. KAT isn't a bad defender. Not going down that rabbit hole mister!

[kg01]

9 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I don't think Beal is terrible. I've seen him give effort when he was younger. I think he has so much weight on his shoulders to be all the offense that he can't give much on the other end.

And yes, Trae will at best case be an average defender. KAT isn't a bad defender. Not going down that rabbit hole mister!

It's ok.  We can just agree that you're wrong ... I mean agree to disagree.   Yeah, that's what I meant?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

This doesn't make any sense.  What superstar and star players are you comparing those 2 too?  Lebron and Wade?  Steph and Clay?  Beal was a terrible defender last year so I don't get that top ten defensive prediction.  People love ball hogs that do nothing else for some reason.  Just say no to Beal.

The top 10 defense wasn't a prediction of a Trae - Beal - Collins led team.  I said that a top 10 defense is normally one of the prerequisites of a championship level team.  

I did say that the trio had a chance to achieve at least 4 of those 5 prerequisites.  The top 10 in defense would be the one that is in question with that group.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, Cwell said:

I never understood the obsession with making blockbuster video game like trades just to get a name. I'm sick of teams trading away their future after finally getting some decent young talent, just to get a name......and end up with nothing to show for it. The levels may be different but this reminds me of The Knicks finally getting some decent talent out of the draft, just to trade for Carmelo. Then have nothing to show for it. The Magic make the finals, then trade for Vince Carter for no reason. Nothing to show for it.

I understand that you don't win without taking chances but damn can we atleast see what we have first? This team needs quality vets and rotational pieces. Theres no need to swing for the fences just to get another all-star at this point. There's not one trade out there that's gonna magically leap frog us into championship contention overnight in my opinion. I'm in no rush to get back on that first round exit hamster wheel we were on for almost 10 years

The Lakers did.  They traded their future for a player who had won nothing on his on.  And in his first year in LA, they win a chip.

The opposite is what happens, most of the time.  And that is a franchise hanging onto their young talent for too long, despite signs that they'll only be good, not great. 

 

[Cwell]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The Lakers did.  They traded their future for a player who had won nothing on his on.  And in his first year in LA, they win a chip.

The opposite is what happens, most of the time.  And that is a franchise hanging onto their young talent for too long, despite signs that they'll only be good, not great. 

 

And how often does that happen? Almost never. And the Lakers already had a top 5 player in the world and traded for another. AD is top 5 on both ends, not just one. This ain’t that and you know it. Y’all want to trade just to trade. Fit doesn’t even matter, just bring the level 2 or level 3 names in just to be playoff punching bags. Forget defensive fit, let’s outscore everybody smh. And what is too long? It’s been 2 years building with this group and people are already antsy. And let’s be real that’s only because Trae developed faster than most expected, including the Hawks front office, which is understandable. 
 

Holding onto young talent too long is what we did with the previous core, the Josh Smith’s, Marvin Williams, and Al Horfords, when it was clear that they weren’t stars/ true dawgs. Honestly the only young player on the roster that I feel already confirmed that he can’t reach that status is Huerter. Everyone else the jury is still out. How Cam and DeAndre develop is the true indicator of where we’re at. 
 

Certain teams have the notoriety to be able to play these trade your pups for “proven” names games. The Hawks ain’t one of them right now. Those teams go and get the bonafied superstars. We get the level 2 and under stars and try to fit a square peg in a round hole like Joe Johnson, a great Robin trying to be Batman. If we trade for anybody, he better be that guy on both ends or it is a guaranteed failure

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Cwell said:

And how often does that happen? Almost never. And the Lakers already had a top 5 player in the world and traded for another. AD is top 5 on both ends, not just one. This ain’t that and you know it. Y’all want to trade just to trade. Fit doesn’t even matter, just bring the level 2 or level 3 names in just to be playoff punching bags. Forget defensive fit, let’s outscore everybody smh. And what is too long? It’s been 2 years building with this group and people are already antsy. And let’s be real that’s only because Trae developed faster than most expected, including the Hawks front office, which is understandable. 
 

Holding onto young talent too long is what we did with the previous core, the Josh Smith’s, Marvin Williams, and Al Horfords, when it was clear that they weren’t stars/ true dawgs. Honestly the only young player on the roster that I feel already confirmed that he can’t reach that status is Huerter. Everyone else the jury is still out. How Cam and DeAndre develop is the true indicator of where we’re at. 
 

Certain teams have the notoriety to be able to play these trade your pups for “proven” names games. The Hawks ain’t one of them right now. Those teams go and get the bonafied superstars. We get the level 2 and under stars and try to fit a square peg in a round hole like Joe Johnson, a great Robin trying to be Batman. If we trade for anybody, he better be that guy on both ends or it is a guaranteed failure

How many of your top level guys are 2-way star players?  Giannis?  Jimmy Butler? ( who this fan base poo-pooed on early in the year ).  Paul George? ( who everyone is down on right now because of his poor offense ) Lebron?  Kawhi? ( whose stocked has dropped as well ).

The one thing about the NBA is that the rest of the teams could care less about our, or any other young team's development. The teams that are truly trying to win, are going to continue to make moves to put themselves in position to get it done.  This is Year 4 of the rebuild. Not reaching the playoffs this season probably means a few heads are going to roll, and possibly the front office's first big decision on a player ( Collins ).  Then you go into the 2021 offseason with all of that cap space, but as a losing team that will not be attractive to the big time free agents.

Speaking of that, here are the top 15 potential free agents in 2021

• Lebron
• Giannis
• Kawhi
• George
• Gobert

 

• Oladipo
• Holliday
• Lowry
• Derozan
• Hayward

 

• Paul
• Griffin
• Conley
• Drummond
• Adams

 

Which one of those guys are going to want to come to ATL if we're not a playoff level team?  If we are a playoff level team, which guy do you think we can realistically get?

The Hawks don't have a few years to get this done.  We're literally 2 years away from Trae's free agency.  

LOL . . the coach AND the GM could be fired within 2 years, yet, people act like we have all of this time to build.

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

LOL . . the coach AND the GM could be fired within 2 years, yet, people act like we have all of this time to build.

I don't completely understanding this statement.  Are you saying that if the team doesn't make the playoffs over the next 2 years, the GM will be fired?  And can I infer from your proposal that if we don't make a trade, our chances of making the playoffs over the next 2 years are very slim?  Please clarify.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I don't completely understanding this statement.  Are you saying that if the team doesn't make the playoffs over the next 2 years, the GM will be fired?  And can I infer from your proposal that if we don't make a trade, our chances of making the playoffs over the next 2 years are very slim?  Please clarify.

If the team doesn't make the playoffs in the next 2 years, the GM should definitely be fired.  The coach will already probably be gone by then, but the GM should be gone as well, because he hired the coach and possibly his successor. He's also responsible for the personnel that was out on the floor.

As far as the trade, I'm saying that if you have a legit shot to pull the trigger on a high level player, you do it without hesitation.  If we're waiting on the kids to develop, this year is the year that they have to show a big leap.  

Can't afford to fall in love with players in this day and age, unless they're legit stars.  Everyone else is expendable.

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, Cwell said:

And how often does that happen? Almost never. And the Lakers already had a top 5 player in the world and traded for another.

Every Lebron Championship was created this way.  That's not Almost never. 

Rare are the teams that a GM built from the draft that wins the chip.  Such as San Antonio and GS.  Those type squads succeed to win a chip rarely.  More likely is the team has  a good peice that they drafted and then use trades to surround him with talent,

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Every Lebron Championship was created this way.  That's not Almost never. 

Rare are the teams that a GM built from the draft that wins the chip.  Such as San Antonio and GS.  Those type squads succeed to win a chip rarely.  More likely is the team has  a good peice that they drafted and then use trades to surround him with talent,

Do we have a Lebron, Magic, or Jordan on the team right now?  If not, your logic doesn't make sense.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If the team doesn't make the playoffs in the next 2 years, the GM should definitely be fired.  The coach will already probably be gone by then, but the GM should be gone as well, because he hired the coach and possibly his successor. He's also responsible for the personnel that was out on the floor.

As far as the trade, I'm saying that if you have a legit shot to pull the trigger on a high level player, you do it without hesitation.  If we're waiting on the kids to develop, this year is the year that they have to show a big leap.  

Can't afford to fall in love with players in this day and age, unless they're legit stars.  Everyone else is expendable.

How long do you wait?  The Bulls waited 7 years before Jordan won!  Were they suppose to trade him after his 2nd year too?  How long did it take Lebron to win?  Does OKC regret not waiting on Hardin?

[gurpilo]

It would be a huge step forward and a big indication for the future to make the playoffs next season. Most likely we fail, team is too young to win but if we add some vets and on a weak east anything can happen. I can see it but we would need to add at least a vet PG, wing and a big. 2 wings would be optimum. Something like Napier, Jae Crowder and Christian Wood would make it but other cheaper options like Dunn, KCP and Jerami Grant can work as well.

[terrell]

35 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

It would be a huge step forward and a big indication for the future to make the playoffs next season. Most likely we fail, team is too young to win but if we add some vets and on a weak east anything can happen. I can see it but we would need to add at least a vet PG, wing and a big. 2 wings would be optimum. Something like Napier, Jae Crowder and Christian Wood would make it but other cheaper options like Dunn, KCP and Jerami Grant can work as well.

Grant wont be cheap...Napier only cheap guy there..

Edited November 4, 2020 by terrell

[Threezus]

The only problem i have with trading for Beal is how bad his defense has gotten over the last few years.  It was literally worse than trae's last year on certain sites metrics.  That scares the ever loving crap out of me if he stays that way still after putting him next to trae.  That is EASILYYYYYYYYYYY the worst defensive backcourt in nba history.  Now if having Trae carry the offense a good bit and letting Beal not work as hard on the offensive side free's him up to go back to old beal a better defender.  Then i think it works out great but i don't know if i want to give up what it takes to get beal to do so.  When i could probably give up the same or less for a guy like Brown from the Celtics and get a true 2 way SG next to him thats young.   But the upside is much higher with the Beal pairing if it does work how we hope it does.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 11/3/2020 at 5:21 PM, Peoriabird said:

How long do you wait?  The Bulls waited 7 years before Jordan won!  Were they suppose to trade him after his 2nd year too?  How long did it take Lebron to win?  Does OKC regret not waiting on Hardin?

Free agency was nothing like it is now, in the early days of Jordan.  Jordan was instantly the best player on the team, so it's ridiculous to even bring his name up.

Lebron made the playoffs in Year 3, and got to the Finals in Year 4

OKC simply didn't want to pay Harden, so they let him go . . a decision they regret dearly.

[Peoriabird]

15 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Lebron made the playoffs in Year 3, and got to the Finals in Year 4

 

None of the players mentioned in trade proposals are in year 3. Hunter has only completed 1 year so I'm not too clear about this response.  I think what others including myself want is to wait until the core has at least a complete season together before they are traded away.  Me personally would want a competent coach with these guys before I give up on them.  What is the rush to make a mad dash to the 8th seed by trading for a player who is a marginal star at best and may not even be a good fit for this team.

[Diesel]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:19 PM, Peoriabird said:

Do we have a Lebron, Magic, or Jordan on the team right now?  If not, your logic doesn't make sense.

We don't need those guys.  That wasn't even the argument.   The argument was that Cwell said that you can't trade for a star player to win a championship. 

I said.. most of the time, you're trading for a star player that helps you win a championship. Hell, it almost worked for Miami.   Did work for LAL. 

I followed by saying that it's rare that you draft a championship team. 

But continue with your Ad hominem.

 

[Diesel]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:41 PM, gurpilo said:

It would be a huge step forward and a big indication for the future to make the playoffs next season. Most likely we fail, team is too young to win but if we add some vets and on a weak east anything can happen. I can see it but we would need to add at least a vet PG, wing and a big. 2 wings would be optimum. Something like Napier, Jae Crowder and Christian Wood would make it but other cheaper options like Dunn, KCP and Jerami Grant can work as well.

I hope everybody is noticing that the East is getting Stronger. 

Miami, Philly, Milwaukee, Toronto, Boston, 

Add in Brooklyn. 

That's 6 guaranteed Playoff spots. 

The rest of us are fighting for those final 2.