Free Agency 2020!!

[macdaddy]

20 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Can we understand something on this Wall v Westbrook thing?

Westbrook's worst season far exceeds Wall's best, prime season.  And it's not all that close.

At his best, Wall is a fringe all-star.  At Westbrook's best, he's an MVP.

I like Westbrook A LOT more than Wall for sure.   I'm not sure that matters at this point though.   I mean DRose was an MVP.    To your point Westbrook maybe the better player but Houston had to get rid of him.  This may have been the only way.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I already told our Kentucky-fan brethren I'll be uttering that very phrase if the Jackets happen to hit the first basket in our upcoming tilt.

As rough as UK has been this year, Tech should have its best shot in a long, long time.  Seems to be a very good time to face off against the Cats.  My brother is a Tech grad and is basically viewing this as one of these teams having to stumble their way into a win.

[capstone21]

I live in Oklahoma and also don't think Westbrook is all that either.  He was a stat hunter ... especially after Durant left.  

He was explosive and was great as anyone at getting to the basket but his jump shot was horrible.  He was absolutely a Josh Smith from three.  Fans would say no when he was behind the three point line.  Westbrook is a total iso Joe.  He just looks for his shot and will take really bad ones.

His rebounding was overstated because OKC would make it so he could get all the free throw rebounds.  He would also go among the trees and get some sneaky rebounds but that would also make it so there is no one back and often let to easy fast breaks for the other teams.

His assists were not from running the offense but from broken plays.  He would get himself trapped in the air or in a bad spot and would send it out to someone to save his bacon.

He was a beast however... he could bang and wasn't afraid to ... when charging the basket he was hard to stop. 

His game is absolutely predicated on his athleticism and that is starting to go down. 

Washington should be interesting as Beal is now supposed to be the man and Westbrook might not mesh well.

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

To your point Westbrook maybe the better player but Houston had to get rid of him.  This may have been the only way.

It just underscores how well OKC did on this whole thing by flipping Westbrook for a ton of picks plus Paul and then flipping Paul for value while Westbrook was basically exchanged for another under water contract.  Both of these guys are talented enough to earn their money but I'm not betting on either doing it this year.  Really interested to see if Westbrook and work with Beal or not.

[mrhonline]

Looking at per (100) possession stats is underrated. 

Player	From	To	G	MP	3PA	3P%	2PA	2P%	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
John Wall	2011	2019	573	20545	4.1	.324	18.3	.457	7.7	.781	0.8	5.3	13.0	2.4	1.0	5.4	3.2	26.7
Russell Westbrook	2009	2020	878	30379	5.3	.305	21.9	.469	10.2	.799	2.4	7.8	12.0	2.5	0.4	5.9	3.7	33.6

Russ is one of the best offensive rebounding guards ever.  Otherwise, they're both ball dominant and inefficient.

[capstone21]

3 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

Looking at per (100) possession stats is underrated. 

Player	From	To	G	MP	3PA	3P%	2PA	2P%	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
John Wall	2011	2019	573	20545	4.1	.324	18.3	.457	7.7	.781	0.8	5.3	13.0	2.4	1.0	5.4	3.2	26.7
Russell Westbrook	2009	2020	878	30379	5.3	.305	21.9	.469	10.2	.799	2.4	7.8	12.0	2.5	0.4	5.9	3.7	33.6

Russ is one of the best offensive rebounding guards ever.  Otherwise, they're both ball dominant and inefficient.

Russ was a good rebounder but his numbers were way bloated on the defensive end.  His offensive rebounds caused problems because he was always running down there and it would lead to fast breaks for the other team.  

The dude was a stud offensive rebounder but it caused problems a lot of times too.

[Atlantaholic]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I like Westbrook and have always hated Wall.  But this still seems like a decent deal really for both teams.   Wall is a better shooter despite both of them sucking.   I think Wall is a better compliment to Harden too.  Someone said Wall's deal was worse but i think they are the same right?   Either way it's probably a gamble worth trying for both teams.

The deals are almost identical. Houston gets a pick and a shot at a better fit for Harden. At the end of the day there was probably no other deal available for Houston. As far as Washington I don't understand it. Could have probably dealt Beal for a few assets and seen if Wall could have increased his value with a strong season and dealt him later. Rebuild around their two lottery picks and gotten another top pick in a pretty loaded draft next year. Now they seem to be fully committed to being a bottom seed for the next three years. Such a Washington move. 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[NBASupes]

11 hours ago, kg01 said:

Can we understand something on this Wall v Westbrook thing?

Westbrook's worst season far exceeds Wall's best, prime season.  And it's not all that close.

At his best, Wall is a fringe all-star.  At Westbrook's best, he's an MVP.

Post Prime Westbrook is empty stats like Josh Smith. 

Wall had only one season in his prime and that was with a weak supporting cast overall and shit management.  

They will play soon. When the season ends, just remember, I told you so. 

Don't be shocked when Wall fits Houston like Nurkic (Portland) and Westbrook metrics look like shit even if his raw number look good. I would be shocked if Russ breaks 3 WAR in Washington. I am expecting his defensive metrics to nosedive even more than it's been doing. While Wall's should be close to his career high. Just remember, I told you so.

[kg01]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Post Prime Westbrook is empty stats like Josh Smith. 

Wall had only one season in his prime and that was with a weak supporting cast overall and shit management.  

They will play soon. When the season ends, just remember, I told you so. 

Don't be shocked when Wall fits Houston like Nurkic (Portland) and Westbrook metrics look like shit even if his raw number look good. I would be shocked if Russ breaks 3 WAR in Washington. I am expecting his defensive metrics to nosedive even more than it's been doing. While Wall's should be close to his career high. Just remember, I told you so.

Hey, you and I have a couple of things to be tracking on the 'I told you so' front.  I'll just add this to the list.

Once they found a role for him, Westbrook was excellent for HOU until he got hurt.

Are you thinking Wall and Harden will play together?  I don't.  I'm expecting Harden to be traded.  Until then, they'll just roll the ball out, results be d*mned.

Once it's Wall's team, they're gonna basically be Wizards-Texas but in the West.  Which is not a good thing for Rockets fans.

There, now I told you so.

[Atlantaholic]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Post Prime Westbrook is empty stats like Josh Smith. 

Wall had only one season in his prime and that was with a weak supporting cast overall and shit management.  

They will play soon. When the season ends, just remember, I told you so. 

Don't be shocked when Wall fits Houston like Nurkic (Portland) and Westbrook metrics look like shit even if his raw number look good. I would be shocked if Russ breaks 3 WAR in Washington. I am expecting his defensive metrics to nosedive even more than it's been doing. While Wall's should be close to his career high. Just remember, I told you so.

The Westbrook bit isn't a bold prediction really. His metrics have looked like cheeks since his MVP season. Wall is more of an enigma, at worst he'll still probably get in Harden's way a lot less than Westbrook so I think that's the main priority for Houston. 

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, kg01 said:

Hey, you and I have a couple of things to be tracking on the 'I told you so' front.  I'll just add this to the list.

Once they found a role for him, Westbrook was excellent for HOU until he got hurt.

Are you thinking Wall and Harden will play together?  I don't.  I'm expecting Harden to be traded.  Until then, they'll just roll the ball out, results be d*mned.

Once it's Wall's team, they're gonna basically be Wizards-Texas but in the West.  Which is not a good thing for Rockets fans.

There, now I told you so.

There is no chance the Westbrook and Beal pairing works, at least not in the playoffs. Wesbrook was willing-ish to adapt his game during the regular season last year but once the playoffs got underway we saw Westbrook become, well, Westbrook. In Washington there is zero chance that Westbrook will be willing to compromise on being number #1 ahead of Beal even during the regular season. If Washington and especially Beal are cool with Russ having his 35%+ USG percentage and chase his numbers than Washington probably makes a run at a playoff spot, but they won't get past a decent defensive team in a 7 game series. What's more likely though is that Beal and Westbrook will clash because I don't see a snowball's chance in heck that Beal is "cool" with Russ having the ball in his hands all game long, and it's abundantly clear by now that this is all Westbrook really wants. 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Hey, you and I have a couple of things to be tracking on the 'I told you so' front.  I'll just add this to the list.

Once they found a role for him, Westbrook was excellent for HOU until he got hurt.

Are you thinking Wall and Harden will play together?  I don't.  I'm expecting Harden to be traded.  Until then, they'll just roll the ball out, results be d*mned.

Once it's Wall's team, they're gonna basically be Wizards-Texas but in the West.  Which is not a good thing for Rockets fans.

There, now I told you so.

No he wasn't, I watched the games. Teams wanted Houston to run the offense through Westbrook and was perfectly fine with Harden taking a backseat as it was their best chance to win. None of his personal success lead to wins. Hence a 2.8 WAR. You didn't watch the Rockets. I did and I went to the games. I know I am 100% right on this one. Westbrook was stat padding and his play giveth and it taketh away

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

There is no chance the Westbrook and Beal pairing works, at least not in the playoffs. Wesbrook was willing-ish to adapt his game during the regular season last year but once the playoffs got underway we saw Westbrook become, well, Westbrook. In Washington there is zero chance that Westbrook will be willing to compromise on being number #1 ahead of Beal even during the regular season. If Washington and especially Beal are cool with Russ having his 35%+ USG percentage and chase his numbers than Washington probably makes a run at a playoff spot, but they won't get past a decent defensive team in a 7 game series. What's more likely though is that Beal and Westbrook will clash because I don't see a snowball's chance in heck that Beal is "cool" with Russ having the ball in his hands all game long, and it's abundantly clear by now that this is all Westbrook really wants. 

Bradley will look good. That's ultimately what matters. Bradley can get clean looks, improve his metrics while Westbrook gets the blame, and when Beal ask for a trade, all of the teams with assets offer for him thinking he's better than he is. 

Westbrook does some good things but it's so much like last year in Atlanta Smoove

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The Westbrook bit isn't a bold prediction really. His metrics have looked like cheeks since his MVP season. Wall is more of an enigma, at worst he'll still probably get in Harden's way a lot less than Westbrook so I think that's the main priority for Houston. 

Wall can't play off the ball, Westbrook ultimately did in HOU.  That's why it started to kinda work later in their season.

[kg01]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No he wasn't, I watched the games. Teams wanted Houston to run the offense through Westbrook and was perfectly fine with Harden taking a backseat as it was their best chance to win. None of his personal success lead to wins. Hence a 2.8 WAR. You didn't watch the Rockets. I did and I went to the games. I know I am 100% right on this one. Westbrook was stat padding and his play giveth and it taketh away

Eh, as you said, we shall see.  Unfortunately, there's no way to see who's right on this.  WAS is a bad team regardless so spouting a bunch of numbers at this time next year won't be a referendum on Westbrook individually.

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The Westbrook bit isn't a bold prediction really. His metrics have looked like cheeks since his MVP season. Wall is more of an enigma, at worst he'll still probably get in Harden's way a lot less than Westbrook so I think that's the main priority for Houston. 

Last season Wall played a full season, he had a WAR of 8.7 and he didn't have sound range. Watch for him this year. He's not an enigma, his game is very honest. If you watch him, you know his game. He's not Westbrook who's all about stats. Wall makes winning plays. His issue is obvious and I still think it will be there which is player movement and being a floor general but he's gonna fit Houston personnel grouping to a T if that jumper is as honest as it looks. Ultimately, maintaining that first step is critical for John. He's always been more of a PnR maestro and upward mobile player. He's not a lateral player. 

Wall is gonna have so much success if healthy. So much success. 

[Atlantaholic]

6 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Wall can't play off the ball, Westbrook ultimately did in HOU.  That's why it started to kinda work later in their season.

Neither can play off ball well in today's NBA. They are abysmal three point shooters. Point is Wall won't have the empire state building sized ego that Westbrook has, and won't be vulturing touches down the stretch of games from Harden, where they belong. Ultimately, Westbrook was not able to do this during the playoffs which is why he was jettisoned. 

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Last season Wall played a full season, he had a WAR of 8.7 and he didn't have sound range. Watch for him this year. He's not an enigma, his game is very honest. If you watch him, you know his game. He's not Westbrook who's all about stats. Wall makes winning plays. His issue is obvious and I still think it will be there which is player movement and being a floor general but he's gonna fit Houston personnel grouping to a T if that jumper is as honest as it looks. Ultimately, maintaining that first step is critical for John. He's always been more of a PnR maestro and upward mobile player. He's not a lateral player. 

Wall is gonna have so much success if healthy. So much success. 

He's an enigma because he hasn't played in two years bro. 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Wall can't play off the ball, Westbrook ultimately did in HOU.  That's why it started to kinda work later in their season.

Playing off the ball is not important in Houston. Harden ball prefers your stagnant. Westbrook issue is his shooting, teams would double from Westbrook defender. They couldn't play Capela with him because teams scheme would be to sellout to Harden and double him at all cost with no issue of leaving Westbrook along because he wouldn't make you pay with his Josh Smith like shooting accuracy from 3 if not worse. 

Wall lack of movement is an issue for Beal due to hurting his raw numbers even if that's when he had his best metrics but it won't be an issue for Harden who's best at playing this style of Basketball and the personnel is for it. 

Gerald Green and Ben McLemore are low BBIQ players. They can't play in a ball movement system. They need to be setup for everything. House Jr can put the ball on the deck but he can't rely on for decision making or playmaking in a ball movement system and same for Wood. 

People really need to watch the Rockets play. The PnR/ISO heavy style works. Their issue is you can't do that with Westbrook and CP3 preference is to run the offense and that's anti Harden from his strengths. Ultimately, this is the best decision Houston made in years but this might be the first one, people aren't hyping like the Paul or Westbrook one. 

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Neither can play off ball well in today's NBA. They are abysmal three point shooters. Point is Wall won't have the empire state building sized ego that Westbrook has, and won't be vulturing touches down the stretch of games from Harden, where they belong. Ultimately, Westbrook was not able to do this during the playoffs which is why he was jettisoned. 

He's an enigma because he hasn't played in two years bro. 

Wall has remodeled his shooting form and looks to be much better at dribble pull up, his footwork and his C&S from 3 has always been solid at 38% for his career. You can't compare Westbrook fit for this system to Wall. Wall is literally a fit for this system or some would see it as a lack thereof to Westbrook who has to control everything. Harden doesn't have to control everything. Wall doesn't have to control everything. 

That's him being a big risk but an enigma is something that's difficult to understand, Westbrook career has been that.

Edited December 4, 2020 by NBASupes