Free Agency 2020!!

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree but we will see who's right and who's wrong soon. Ultimately, it wasn't his dominant leg and that matters. Also, John is one of the most freakish athletes I've seen for the sport in terms of complete athlete. He can lose some and still be fine as long as he gained in other areas, mainly shooting. 

I think he could be 2017 John Wall with volume three point shooting, just in more limited minutes for this type of season. We will see. 

Eh, life is better when you and I disagree.  Michael Beasley looked great in that run too, huh?

I suppose you're proposing that, for the first time in history, a guy who's game is predicated on speed/quickness will come back from multiple devastating leg injuries having not lost several steps.

Ok.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Eh, life is better when you and I disagree.  Michael Beasley looked great in that run too, huh?

I suppose you're proposing that, for the first time in history, a guy who's game is predicated on speed/quickness will come back from multiple devastating leg injuries having not lost several steps.

Ok.

Michael Beasley always looks amazing in freestyle situations. He used to consistently beat LeBron in 1 on 1 battles when they were teammates.

Beasley's issues are running plays, playing within a system, making good reads, making smart decisions, and everything defense that's not on the ball. He not everyone is meant for organized Basketball at the highest level.

As Gilbert Arenas said, this isn't that big of a deal as this happened to his non-dominant leg. I didn't know if I wanted to believe him until I watched him play. Gilbert was right. We literally seen Stewie dominate the WNBA off of an Achilles injuries the previous year. 

Considering modern technology, I am confident these players are back better after these injuries than they left them.

 

[macdaddy]

John Wall is a better fit with Harden.  Still not a good fit but better.   I'm still baffled that Westbrook didn't get to Cleveland or NY.   I fear the Wiz more with Westbrook than with Wall.   Which is to say I went from not fearing them to 

[High5]

14 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I live in Houston. Westbrook sucks.

 

39 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There is a reason I why I am sky high on Wall. I know what his game looks like. 

We're so lucky to have someone who can shed some light on these underground talents. 

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

John Wall is a better fit with Harden.  Still not a good fit but better.   I'm still baffled that Westbrook didn't get to Cleveland or NY.   I fear the Wiz more with Westbrook than with Wall.   Which is to say I went from not fearing them to 

Westbrook at this stage is truly a PG version of Josh Smith in his last year as a Hawk.

[kg01]

49 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

As Gilbert Arenas said, this isn't that big of a deal as this happened to his non-dominant leg. I didn't know if I wanted to believe him until I watched him play. Gilbert was right. We literally seen Stewie dominate the WNBA off of an Achilles injuries the previous year. 

Considering modern technology, I am confident these players are back better after these injuries than they left them.

 

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious when you cite a WNBA player as some level of "proof" this injury won't impact Wall.  Speed and explosiveness are the hallmarks of John Wall's game.  Period.  He's into his 30's now so was going to see a natural regression there regardless of injury.

If you were telling me he's become more of a player that attacks the angles and relies less on explosiveness, I could see your argument.  But that doesn't appear to be what you're saying.  You seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that he'll return and not miss a beat?

Sorry, two factors betray this notion.  1. The time off, just in general.  2. His age.  2 years off effects anybody.  That seems obvious.  At best, he'll take some time to get back up to game speed.

Second, everybody loses a step at some point in their lives.  The only test case to the contrary is Lebron.  

You're telling me he's going to overcome both these stumbling blocks?  In addition to overcoming the most devastating lower leg injury a player can experience?

I'm not saying you're wrong.  Just color me skeptical.

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Westbrook at this stage is truly a PG version of Josh Smith in his last year as a Hawk.

100% this. I was a big Westbrook fan early on in his career when he exploded into the scene, just as I was with Josh. But after a decade plus of seeing him never, ever learning from his mistakes and doubling down on his worst habbits he's become a player I would want to avoid at all costs especially as his athleticism begins to diminish. Just like Josh. 

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious when you cite a WNBA player as some level of "proof" this injury won't impact Wall.  Speed and explosiveness are the hallmarks of John Wall's game.  Period.  He's into his 30's now so was going to see a natural regression there regardless of injury.

If you were telling me he's become more of a player that attacks the angles and relies less on explosiveness, I could see your argument.  But that doesn't appear to be what you're saying.  You seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that he'll return and not miss a beat?

Sorry, two factors betray this notion.  1. The time off, just in general.  2. His age.  2 years off effects anybody.  That seems obvious.  At best, he'll take some time to get back up to game speed.

Second, everybody loses a step at some point in their lives.  The only test case to the contrary is Lebron.  

You're telling me he's going to overcome both these stumbling blocks?  In addition to overcoming the most devastating lower leg injury a player can experience?

I'm not saying you're wrong.  Just color me skeptical.

I think the best example you can look at that's recent is Keanu Neal. Even though it's a different sport I think it's more comparable than a WNBA player, just because of the level of athleticism involved and the fact Neal missed almost two full seasons of football on a torn ACL followed by torn Achilles. Keanu started off slow but has looked like his former self the last several weeks, though it's probably fair to say he doesn't quite have the same range he used to (though it was never that good). I think expecting Wall to be just as explosive is probably a long shot, especially the first several months of the season. I think by season two if he can stay healthy he could be back to 95% of what he was pre injury, but even that is pretty optimistic. 

[kg01]

16 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

I think the best example you can look at that's recent is Keanu Neal. Even though it's a different sport I think it's more comparable than a WNBA player, just because of the level of athleticism involved and the fact Neal missed almost two full seasons of football on a torn ACL followed by torn Achilles. Keanu started off slow but has looked like his former self the last several weeks, though it's probably fair to say he doesn't quite have the same range he used to (though it was never that good). I think expecting Wall to be just as explosive is probably a long shot, especially the first several months of the season. I think by season two if he can stay healthy he could be back to 95% of what he was pre injury, but even that is pretty optimistic. 

Definitely a more apt comparison.  My only add would be Wall's age is also a significant factor.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious when you cite a WNBA player as some level of "proof" this injury won't impact Wall.  Speed and explosiveness are the hallmarks of John Wall's game.  Period.  He's into his 30's now so was going to see a natural regression there regardless of injury.

If you were telling me he's become more of a player that attacks the angles and relies less on explosiveness, I could see your argument.  But that doesn't appear to be what you're saying.  You seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that he'll return and not miss a beat?

Sorry, two factors betray this notion.  1. The time off, just in general.  2. His age.  2 years off effects anybody.  That seems obvious.  At best, he'll take some time to get back up to game speed.

Second, everybody loses a step at some point in their lives.  The only test case to the contrary is Lebron.  

You're telling me he's going to overcome both these stumbling blocks?  In addition to overcoming the most devastating lower leg injury a player can experience?

I'm not saying you're wrong.  Just color me skeptical.

It's clear you are not a Basketball guy if you are shitting on the WNBA as if that's not literally the same exact sport. 

John got hurt on his non dominant leg in his 20s. He wasn't 30-31 when he got hurt he was literally in his physical prime and from the looks, he still is.

They start playing soon. We will see

[Atlantaholic]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Definitely a more apt comparison.  My only add would be Wall's age is also a significant factor.

yea, definitely. Neal is still super young, so that's a good point. 

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's clear you are not a Basketball guy if you are shitting on the WNBA as if that's not literally the same exact sport. 

John got hurt on his non dominant leg in his 20s. He wasn't 30-31 when he got hurt he was literally in his physical prime and from the looks, he still is.

They start playing soon. We will see

What does this even mean?  The NBA and NCAA are both basketball but they aren't the same.

It's no slight to acknowledge that what it takes to be elite in the WNBA is not the same as what it takes to be elite in the NBA.  Suggesting otherwise is disingenuous.

How does it matter that he was 29 when he was injured if he's 31+ now?  We're living in 2020 not 2018.

I can't believe you're even arguing with me on this.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I can't believe you're even arguing with me on this.

I'm not sure there is anywhere for this to go anyway.  Supes has seen the videos of Wall and thinks he is physically back.  You and others think it is unlikely that anyone who suffered the injuries he has worked through will be able to come back resembling their former self.  Medical issues can be people specific and we'll have a definitive answer this season.

I personally am skeptical of his ability to return but I'd love to see him bounced back with a deadly jumper.  (And I've previously expressed my skepticism as to how that carries over in games but even bad shooters like Kidd have turned the corner on their jump shot so I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility).

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not sure there is anywhere for this to go anyway.  Supes has seen the videos of Wall and thinks he is physically back.  You and others think it is unlikely that anyone who suffered the injuries he has worked through will be able to come back resembling their former self.  Medical issues can be people specific and we'll have a definitive answer this season.

I personally am skeptical of his ability to return but I'd love to see him bounced back with a deadly jumper.  (And I've previously expressed my skepticism as to how that carries over in games but even bad shooters like Kidd have turned the corner on their jump shot so I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility).

It's not that difficult. You get it. I know his game, he looks every bit as quick, first step is the same, and his speed which wasn't on full showcase look as  good as 16-17 where I attended at least 30 games that season and had up close tickets as always. 

What he is saying is a general statement. I am not really interested in that because I've spend time watching him in pickup games and I am seeing the same athleticism I saw that season but with a tremendously upgraded shooting form, release point, quickness of shot, and the touch was always there, it was the other stuff for John that needed work. I always felt he cared more about LIV and stadium more than the actual game itself but once he got hurt and doubted, I noticed John put a lot of work in and started listening to guys like Gilbert who helped him with the rehab process. He stop partying as much and put in the extra work. He was even in the coaches room for an entire season. John looks scary. I wouldn't put it past John if he got 8-10 WAR in Houston next to Harden. I also wouldn't put it past Westbrook if his WAR doesn't break 3. I think this trade as top 10 worst trades on the decade potential. It really reminds me of the Nurkic-Plumlee deal. 

[macdaddy]

I like Westbrook and have always hated Wall.  But this still seems like a decent deal really for both teams.   Wall is a better shooter despite both of them sucking.   I think Wall is a better compliment to Harden too.  Someone said Wall's deal was worse but i think they are the same right?   Either way it's probably a gamble worth trying for both teams.

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not sure there is anywhere for this to go anyway.  Supes has seen the videos of Wall and thinks he is physically back.  You and others think it is unlikely that anyone who suffered the injuries he has worked through will be able to come back resembling their former self.  Medical issues can be people specific and we'll have a definitive answer this season.

I personally am skeptical of his ability to return but I'd love to see him bounced back with a deadly jumper.  (And I've previously expressed my skepticism as to how that carries over in games but even bad shooters like Kidd have turned the corner on their jump shot so I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility).

Yeah I figured I traipsed into sacred cow territory.  You've roped in both sides' arguments well, I think.

See, that's why you won the mod elections.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I like Westbrook and have always hated Wall.  But this still seems like a decent deal really for both teams.   Wall is a better shooter despite both of them sucking.   I think Wall is a better compliment to Harden too.  Someone said Wall's deal was worse but i think they are the same right?   Either way it's probably a gamble worth trying for both teams.

Same exact deal. 

The best style for Harden is the best style for Wall. I don't know if Coach Silas will do just that but he likely doesn't have a choice considering the supporting cast. 

Westbrook style is he has to run the show completely. Harden and Wall like to take turns. CP3 wants to run real offense but Harden doesn't like moving without the ball. 

Both John and Harden don't like moving without the ball but Wall is a 37% 3pt catch and shoot guy and he unlike Westbrook can draw the defense in when Harden plays Harden-ball. 

Vegas changed HOU odds from 40-1 to 30-1 with the trade while leaving the Wizards the same. Vegas knows, Wall is a much better player and a perfect fit for this style of play. 

 

Beal will like Westbrook because of his nature, ultimately, this is a showcase year for Beal. The last thing he needs is to be a part of the John Wall redemption tour. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by NBASupes

[lethalweapon3]

10 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Yeah I figured I traipsed into sacred cow territory.  You've roped in both sides' arguments well, I think.

See, that's why you won the mod elections.

STOP

THE

COUNT!!! 

 

~lw3

[kg01]

27 minutes ago, lethalweapon3 said:

STOP

THE

COUNT!!! 

 

~lw3

I already told our Kentucky-fan brethren I'll be uttering that very phrase if the Jackets happen to hit the first basket in our upcoming tilt.

[kg01]

Can we understand something on this Wall v Westbrook thing?

Westbrook's worst season far exceeds Wall's best, prime season.  And it's not all that close.

At his best, Wall is a fringe all-star.  At Westbrook's best, he's an MVP.