Uh oh...Ice vs The Baptist

[AHF]

I’m not even considering moving JC or Trae over this.  Hopefully much ado about nothing.

[Sothron]

This is literally a molehill some ppl are trying to make into a mountain. JC correctly points out in a film session that Trae can share the ball more and look for better shots because the team has weapons now it never had before. He didn't call Trae out. He didn't demand more shots. He sure as hell didn't talk about his contract or wanting more money.

This is nothing. If Trae really did pull a Kobe and play like  a punk ass bitch to send a message to JC then I have serious questions about Trae. But I don't think he did that. I think he had a crappy game which everyone has at some point in a season.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

41 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I think I was clear, but apologies for not being crystal clear...and I hope the board will forgive me if I'm not perfectly, crystal, clear...lol Seriously, I don't want to be accused of moving goalposts and changing what I said, etc. so let me try to be perfectly, crystal, clear....I don't like players talking about their money.  I said "during the season", I was referring more to the timing of their comments.  

I think EVERYONE is aware he made the comments during the season LAST year and didn't like it then ....but your post seemed to entertwine that into his current critisms of Trae and the offense . It's ok to disagree on topics, but I will stand by my assertion that I find no fault in JC comments and more importantly in the setting that it occurred. He didn’t say them to the media or to another teammate and it got back to Trae, he said it directly to him. I'm not drawing any lines between both players as I've defended both in this thread. 

What we all know, is that the greatest of players need their teammates to win.

[Wretch]

Just now, Sothron said:

This is literally a molehill some ppl are trying to make into a mountain. JC correctly points out in a film session that Trae can share the ball more and look for better shots because the team has weapons now it never had before. He didn't call Trae out. He didn't demand more shots. He sure as hell didn't talk about his contract or wanting more money.

This is nothing. If Trae really did pull a Kobe and play like  a punk ass bitch to send a message to JC then I have serious questions about Trae. But I don't think he did that. I think he had a crappy game which everyone has at some point in a season.

 

The latter part of that I agree with.  Trae is human, but you've got to be professional.

If the reports are right, what happened is more than a minor thing.  I do not believe a professional who has played team sports his whole life and has been in countless film sessions would take offensive criticism so badly.  If that is the case, I don't want Trae running our team.  I do not believe that is the case.

The money part is there in his own words.  Those who think it's ok, that's your opinion.  Mine is that it's not ok. My reasoning is because it causes distractions and you can have those conversations without getting the fans and media involved.  I think those discussions should stay "in house" just like whatever happens in the locker room.

All of this is second hand information.  None of us were in the conversation.  I'm just reading what people are saying and giving my opinion.  I don't think criticism would have the affect on a player the way something got into Trae.  Not only that, but how about people missing their shots when it counts and turnovers?  Even by Trae - forced passes and mental lapses.  Man, I'd have nothing to say if that was the criticism.  But to call out the offense, and point it at one player, when the whole team is missing shots.  That's not cool.  Also, if the reports are true, Trae should have gone to John about it instead of talking with others indirectly. 

I can't argue about the half court shots, but if we're asking Trae to share the ball more, score more efficiently, and run the offense better...lol, we may as well be asking him to be the greatest player ever.  He can improve, but he's doing a lot and he's doing it well.

Ultimately, how is this not the responsibility of the coach?  Is this not LP's job?  Has Nate, who played with some of the biggest egos on some exceptionally talented teams, nothing to say?  Is it not on him?

John has been causing distractions.  Needs to stop.  My opinion Soth.

[Sothron]

I don't see how this is JC causing a problem. This is normal film talk. Players and coaches go over what worked and what didn't work and how to get better. Someone leaked this to the media for exactly the reasons we're seeing now: stir up drama and try to damage our team. 

JC is not causing problems. Someone is trying to make either him or Trae look bad for their own agenda. THAT is the problem.

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I don't see how this is JC causing a problem. This is normal film talk. Players and coaches go over what worked and what didn't work and how to get better. Someone leaked this to the media for exactly the reasons we're seeing now: stir up drama and try to damage our team. 

JC is not causing problems. Someone is trying to make either him or Trae look bad for their own agenda. THAT is the problem.

Trae is being a baby. Getting butthurt because JC made a fair, constructive criticism during film session. Man up Trae.

[Wretch]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think EVERYONE is aware he made the comments during the season LAST year....but your post seemed to entertwine that into his current critisms of Trae and the offense . It's ok to disagree on topics, but I will stand by my assertion that I find no fault in JC comments and more importantly in the setting that it occurred. He didn’t say them to the media or to another teammate and it got back to Trae, he said it directly to him.

Last year was days ago Jay. lol I'm saying his comments have carried from last season into his negotiations this season.

There are some things that I straddle the fence on, but this is not one of them.  I'll say it for the record: I feel the basis for his criticisms are rooted in his contract.  I feel that he's been talking about his contract and his worth openly in a way that is a distraction.  I feel that his criticism of the offense, Trae, his suspension, and his contract talk are all distractions that can be handled better.

I don't dislike John, nor do I think he's trash on the court.  I think he's overrated (same way I thought Horford was overrated), but not overrated in the sense that he's not a cornerstone to a contender.  I think he's exactly that.  Like, our Draymond Green...but better.  He hasn't shown me that he can carry the team the way Curry or Klay can. 

I'm 50/50 on whether or not I would deal him...some of this stuff plays into that, but not much.  Not much. I believe in selling high and I'm not so sold on him as a solid #2.  I'm not so attached to JC that I wouldn't consider a package for a legit #2.  The flipside of that 50/50 is that I'm just as interested in seeing what happens if we lean on him and let him create his own shot (along with moving the ball more and better coaching).

Give him the ball and run some plays for him.  Let the man earn his money.  Let's see if he is our #2 option of the future.  I'm with all that shit.  I think it should be a conversation between him and the coach.  Not Trae who is not a selfish player, is stupidly efficient, and likely just doing what he's instructed to do.  You guys can read it how you want, but this doesn't sound like a "spirited team meeting."  It sounds like JC called Trae out. 

I like the sound of that as much as I enjoyed his suspension or hearing him talk about what kind of contract he should get.

[benhillboy]

32 minutes ago, Sothron said:

If Trae really did pull a Kobe and play like  a punk ass bitch to send a message to JC then I have serious questions about Trae...

 

Whoa whoa whoa.  That’s The Late Great Bean you talking about.  I know everyone isn’t a Kobe fan and he’s not above respectful criticism even in death but there were a lot of phrases you could’ve used, you decided on “punk ass bitch?”  If that’s how you describe a 12 time All Defensive player who played his entire career in one uniform with all types of injuries I shudder to hear what you’d call the average NBA player lol.

Edited January 9, 2021 by benhillboy

[Wretch]

9 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I don't see how this is JC causing a problem. This is normal film talk. Players and coaches go over what worked and what didn't work and how to get better. Someone leaked this to the media for exactly the reasons we're seeing now: stir up drama and try to damage our team. 

JC is not causing problems. Someone is trying to make either him or Trae look bad for their own agenda. THAT is the problem.

I don't agree with you Soth and since you're in the same town as me....meet me down on Victory Drive and let's fight. 

(Steel cage if you're not chicken.)

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Last year was days ago Jay. lol I'm saying his comments have carried from last season into his negotiations this season.

There are some things that I straddle the fence on, but this is not one of them.  I'll say it for the record: I feel the basis for his criticisms are rooted in his contract.  I feel that he's been talking about his contract and his worth openly in a way that is a distraction.  I feel that his criticism of the offense, Trae, his suspension, and his contract talk are all distractions that can be handled better.

I don't dislike John, nor do I think he's trash on the court.  I think he's overrated (same way I thought Horford was overrated), but not overrated in the sense that he's not a cornerstone to a contender.  I think he's exactly that.  Like, our Draymond Green...but better.  He hasn't shown me that he can carry the team the way Curry or Klay can. 

I'm 50/50 on whether or not I would deal him...some of this stuff plays into that, but not much.  Not much. I believe in selling high and I'm not so sold on him as a solid #2.  I'm not so attached to JC that I wouldn't consider a package for a legit #2.  The flipside of that 50/50 is that I'm just as interested in seeing what happens if we lean on him and let him create his own shot (along with moving the ball more and better coaching).

Give him the ball and run some plays for him.  Let the man earn his money.  Let's see if he is our #2 option of the future.  I'm with all that shit.  I think it should be a conversation between him and the coach.  Not Trae who is not a selfish player, is stupidly efficient, and likely just doing what he's instructed to do.  You guys can read it how you want, but this doesn't sound like a "spirited team meeting."  It sounds like JC called Trae out. 

I like the sound of that as much as I enjoyed his suspension or hearing him talk about what kind of contract he should get.

Question - have you read the article in it's entirety?

[marco102]

Ok, I'll ask. Who's the snitch? @NBASupes?

[bleachkit]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Ok, I'll ask. Who's the snitch? @NBASupes?

Kirschner said he had three sources, so I think you mean snitches, plural.

[bleachkit]

Quite frankly, Im glad this got out. Trae's behavior in this instance was completely unacceptable, and it warranted public scrutiny.

The fact that there are multiple sources means the team was basically like "Trae pulled a bitch move and I'm going to tell the media what happened." 

Edited January 9, 2021 by bleachkit

[Wretch]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Question - have you read the article in it's entirety?

If I say no, am I a bad person? lol I'm not sure that I've read it all, but I'm not just reading the headlines and drinking the Koolaid.  I've gone through it and have read a lot of people's takes on it. I've also read his and Trae's comments post "Trae Sux Offense-gate"  It doesn't sound unfamiliar to me.  Much of it sounds like what happens on every team.

The part that bothers me...

I'm concerned about how Trae came out last game and what's coming out in the media.  Smoke and fire and all that.  I think something was said that crossed a line that was not just "routine film session jaw-jacking"

What I don't know?

Was it really that bad how and what was said?  If it wasn't, yikes Trae.  Grow up.  This is what happens. You're a professional and you get paid a lot of money to do it. He can't be that fragile and be expected to carry us to being a contender.  I'm choosing not to believe that based upon the information that's out there and how he played in response.

 

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, Wretch said:

If I say no, am I a bad person? lol I'm not sure that I've read it all, but I'm not just reading the headlines and drinking the Koolaid.  I've gone through it and have read a lot of people's takes on it. I've also read his and Trae's comments post "Trae Sux Offense-gate"  It doesn't sound unfamiliar to me.  Much of it sounds like what happens on every team.

The part that bothers me...

I'm concerned about how Trae came out last game and what's coming out in the media.  Smoke and fire and all that.  I think something was said that crossed a line that was not just "routine film session jaw-jacking"

What I don't know?

Was it really that bad how and what was said?  If it wasn't, yikes Trae.  Grow up.  This is what happens. You're a professional and you get paid a lot of money to do it. He can't be that fragile and be expected to carry us to being a contender.  I'm choosing not to believe that based upon the information that's out there and how he played in response.

 

Kirchner has multiple sources. I highly doubt they are lying. If Trae was being grossly mischaracterized, the team would have disputed the reports, gone to bat for their star, but they are not.

[JayBirdHawk]

7 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Last year was days ago Jay. lol I'm saying his comments have carried from last season into his negotiations this season.

There are some things that I straddle the fence on, but this is not one of them.  I'll say it for the record: I feel the basis for his criticisms are rooted in his contract.  I feel that he's been talking about his contract and his worth openly in a way that is a distraction.  I feel that his criticism of the offense, Trae, his suspension, and his contract talk are all distractions that can be handled better.

I disagree.

I posted an article from back in 2018 referencing Pierce saying he doesn't call plays for him and JCs response indicating he'd like to be more involved in the offense, so this isn't new, he talked about it last season as well.....all before he talked his contract.

I don't disagree that the Hawks and JC not coming to a contract leaves some underlying distractions.  But he has made no mention of it since the 2020 season started. I watched him closely the first few games to see if he would be pouting or disengaged from the team - he hasn't been, he's cheering from the bench and rooting his teammates on. 

If you want to call it 'calling out Trae' have at it.

If you can look at the 2nd half of the Cavs game and the Knicks game (his comments were after this game during film) and tell me that the struggles of the offense wasn't as JC described as needing to do, I'll shut up.

[Wretch]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

Kirchner has multiple sources. I highly doubt they are lying. If Trae was being grossly mischaracterized, the team would have disputed the reports, gone to bat for their star, but they are not.

Well...  In that situation, I would honestly want everyone to shut up.  Nobody standing up publicly for Trae and nobody siding with JC.  I would think they're not talking because it would cause more of a divide.  It says something to me that he went to others individually afterwards to express his opinion - and that he disagreed. 

Nothing else came from that either.

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, Wretch said:

If I say no, am I a bad person? lol

Yes, . Couldn't resist.

I'll just leave this last snippet from the article:

Quote

......Others see Collins’ views differently, claiming his focus in the film session was on the need for Young to maximize the deep roster of talent that now surrounds him.

Some Hawks have agreed with Collins’ stance and believe when he’s featured more, the team plays much better. After Collins spoke up in the team’s film session, the message from the coaching staff was that the Hawks have to do a better job of making opposing teams work on defense because of the offensive weapons they now have, and settling on bad looks early in the shot clock is not a recipe for success.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

A little adversity - This will either make them stronger or they'll wilt. Let's see how it plays out.

[JayBirdHawk]

28 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Ok, I'll ask. Who's the snitch? @NBASupes?

This is a good #AskSupes.