Was it a Waste?

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I talked bad about Hunter and Cam Posing.    The truth is we have 5 guys shooting over 38% from three.   Gallo is the only new guy on that list. 

 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  We have 3 guys other than Gallo shooting over 38% (unless you're including Knight).    But this is the whole point.  You can't have just 5/6 guys good guys.  You have to have guys coming off the bench who can knock down shots.   And they are likely going to have to start some games this season too.   

[Final_quest]

Jury is still out.  Gallo has had a long career.  He didn’t suddenly forget how to play.  
Similar with Bogdanovic.  I trust his career numbers over his numbers adjusting to a new team in a few games.    
With guys like Damian Jones, Alex Len, and Evan Turner you knew it would be a low ceiling.  At least we have room to improve that 2nd unit after some adjustments and injury recoveries.

[REHawksFan]

51 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Here's the thing.. I have highlighted the 2 areas I will address... First.. Appreciate your response.

 

1st point.

You should care how much the BUs make because that will drive the price for the starters up.   It's called inflation.   IF a team is willing to pay Gallo 20 Million dollars for what he brings... then it cannot offer JC 21 Million for what he brings.   You said that Gallo brings something on Offense.  He brings absolutely nothing on defense.   If I'm JC's agent, I'm rubbing my hands extra hard in expectation to the Max. 

2nd Point.

JC is not a 20/10 guy on a NBA team.  UHm...  I used to be of the same opinion as you.   In fact, I believe and still believe that JC's production is built out of Trae's house.    The problem with JC is that he doesn't create for himself.   That means that his creation is dependent on him being fed.  Honestly, the same could be said about Karl Malone and Tim Duncan (to an extent).   i.e. these players also needed to be fed.  Duncan had all the tools but you never saw Duncan bring the ball up and initiate offense.   What you saw was Duncan in his spots getting the ball and going to work.   We celebrate him because whether he was high post of low post or beyond the arc.. the ball was going in.   JC has that same problem.   His complaint has been towards Trae but really it's coaching.   The way that guys like him, Malone, and Duncan work is that the team made them a priority.   This season, so far, Clint has been more of a priority than JC offensively.   But look at JC's numbers again.... even without the touches... His FG% is up.  His TOs are down and on the defensive side of the ball... he's balling.   An opposing GM with a good PG is not going to look at JC and say... that kid is not 20/10 on a team full of NBA players.  They are going to say... do you see the way this kid slips the screen?  Do you see how he rolls on the pick and roll?   Do you see his BBIQ? 

JC's points being down is an offensive identity problem.   Mechanistically, he will get you the points if you get him the ball.   He's not in the mold of KG where he doesn't need anything.  He's in the mold of Duncan/Malone where if you plan an offense around him, he will get you points at a high efficiency. 

 

I don't think we are too far off here.  On the first point, sure, we probably just disagree.  I think it doesn't really matter about Gallo's $$ as a BU because he's been a starter in the league his whole career and was paid like a starter. He's not, but if I'm TS or Ressler, I'm not letting that get in the way of my negotiations with JC.  I'll handle him on the basis of his value to our team. 

On that front, I agree with most of what you are saying. Trae is the engine to the JC production train. And yes, they haven't gone to him this year and by design as they have focused on Clint who gives them more defense and better rebounding with essentially the same finishing ability at the rim. And that kinda proves my point about JC. They don't NEED to go through him to win games or to be a playoff team. What he offers is replaceable. Yes, he's elite at slipping screens. Probably better than most. But his shooting is replaceable since it is largely a product of Trae initiating and getting him the ball. His rebounding and defense are nothing extraordinary that can't be replaced. 

Let me be perfectly clear.....John Collins has value to the Hawks. I would have no problem with them keeping him. I just don't believe his value is at a Max contract level. He's not a guy that is going to carry a team because his production requires Trae. He's interchangeable. And therefore, imo, you shouldn't give him the Max.  

Take Tobias Harris as an example. He and John have similar production and would very likely be interchangeable. He was maxed out and is now considered one of if not THE most overpaid player in the NBA.   

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Take Tobias Harris as an example. He and John have similar production and would very likely be interchangeable. He was maxed out and is now considered one of if not THE most overpaid player in the NBA.   

I'm not sure about the comparison.  Collins is a true big who is twice the rebounder that Harris is but also shoots the 3 at 40% and is 6 years younger.  I know you were saying they have similar production not that they are similar players but seems like the case is pretty strong that Collins is a lot better. 

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not sure about the comparison.  Collins is a true big who is twice the rebounder that Harris is but also shoots the 3 at 40% and is 6 years younger.  I know you were saying they have similar production not that they are similar players but seems like the case is pretty strong that Collins is a lot better. 

They aren't identical, but as a PF for his career, Harris has averaged 17.5 pts and 6.6 reb while JC is avg 16.2 pts and 7.6 reb this year (which is the argument).  Regardless, he was just the first overpaid PF that I thought of. There's other players that could produce what JC gives when you factor in Trae facilitating.  That was my point.  And again, I don't want JC to leave. I just don't want to give him a Max. 

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

They aren't identical, but as a PF for his career, Harris has averaged 17.5 pts and 6.6 reb while JC is avg 16.2 pts and 7.6 reb this year (which is the argument).  Regardless, he was just the first overpaid PF that I thought of. There's other players that could produce what JC gives when you factor in Trae facilitating.  That was my point.  And again, I don't want JC to leave. I just don't want to give him a Max. 

Yeah i get that.   He's certainly not the type of player you view as a max guy but i'd make the argument that JC is truly our glue guy.

[hawkzlova123]

He's not a super hero. He can't tell the future.

 

People please stop judging off of 6 six games. It doesn't determine how a player will do.

 

There is something called improvement.

No, it wasn't a waste

 

 

[warcore]

Well you're disregarding the fact that the contracts of our FA acquisition line up in such a way that they will not hamper the resigning of our own players:

1. We will need to pay JC this summer (Snell expires). While talking about JC, we needed to see his impact on a team with other quality players. Because if we rolled out a similar lineup as last year, yes we would likely be forced to pay him a max just based on his numbers. We see that with other quality players around him, he's not a max player.  Consider this a pleotropic effect of adding these quality players, that no one saw initially. 
2. Gallo, Rondo, and Dunn all expire when we need to pay Trae, Huerter

3. Bogi expires when we need to pay Cam/Dre

Worth it. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Bogi is shooting the three at 36%, which is around his career average. He's never been a 40% guy. 

Kevin Huerter shot 38% From three last season and He's shooting 38% from three now.  Yet.... we were so gong ho about Bogo being the starter and Kevin coming off the bench.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

39 minutes ago, warcore said:

Well you're disregarding the fact that the contracts of our FA acquisition line up in such a way that they will not hamper the resigning of our own players:

I pointed this out after FAcy, thanks for saying it again.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Kevin Huerter shot 38% From three last season and He's shooting 38% from three now.  Yet.... we were so gong ho about Bogo being the starter and Kevin coming off the bench.

 

Kevin was always going to come off the bench based on how the season played out with Cam starting. Cam ended up struggling, so Bogi got the call to start, then he got injured in that same game. Cam was back as starter, Kevin still off the bench, until Cam got injured.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Jury is still out.  Gallo has had a long career.  He didn’t suddenly forget how to play.  
Similar with Bogdanovic.  I trust his career numbers over his numbers adjusting to a new team in a few games.    
With guys like Damian Jones, Alex Len, and Evan Turner you knew it would be a low ceiling.  At least we have room to improve that 2nd unit after some adjustments and injury recoveries.

This Bodganovic has only been in the league for 4 years.  Huerter has been in the league for 3.  This Bogdanovic is about a 36-37% shooter from three.  You're right.. he's consistent.   Huerter on the other hand is 38% shooter from three.   As I said on trade day.. we have to realize that we're getting this Bogdanovic and not the one from Utah. 

Real talk.  Vince Carter at age 42 his first year with us was better than this Bogdanovic.  That's no slight because Vince was a great player.   But just to put some reference to it. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

 

On that front, I agree with most of what you are saying. Trae is the engine to the JC production train. And yes, they haven't gone to him this year and by design as they have focused on Clint who gives them more defense and better rebounding with essentially the same finishing ability at the rim. And that kinda proves my point about JC. They don't NEED to go through him to win games or to be a playoff team. What he offers is replaceable. Yes, he's elite at slipping screens. Probably better than most. But his shooting is replaceable since it is largely a product of Trae initiating and getting him the ball. His rebounding and defense are nothing extraordinary that can't be replaced. 

Let me be perfectly clear.....John Collins has value to the Hawks. I would have no problem with them keeping him. I just don't believe his value is at a Max contract level. He's not a guy that is going to carry a team because his production requires Trae. He's interchangeable. And therefore, imo, you shouldn't give him the Max.  

Take Tobias Harris as an example. He and John have similar production and would very likely be interchangeable. He was maxed out and is now considered one of if not THE most overpaid player in the NBA.   

Here's where I differ from you.

If you take Stockton away from Malone...  Malone doesn't get into the Hall of Fame.  I say that because when Stockton retired... Malone immediately dropped in efficiency.   He went from being a 50% FG% to about a 43%.  It's not so much that it was about Stockton making Malone but more about the fact that Utah's gameplan under Sloan was always PNR with Stockton and Malone as the bread and butter.   Sure, JC is dependent on Trae to be great... but at the same time... No many bigs can slip the pick and roll and finish like JC.  It's stupid that we don't make the 2 man game with Trae and JC our bread and butter and like Utah run everything out of that set.   JC is doing nothing but getting more efficient and we're still not drawing up plays for him. 

Our Front Office s--- is effecting our On the court s---...  and it's a terrible way to run the team.  Similar to the way that you don't care how much you pay Gallo because of what he does for US... Why is your feeling different for JC?  Honestly... JC could be OUR Max player because if we did decide to run  PNR/PNP with Trae and J... we would be one hard team to beat.   Trae would easily be a 20+/10+ PG and JC would be a 20/10 PF.   Guys like Gallo, Hurter, Hunter would all benefit because they would be the wide open second option. 

Instead of that.. we rather snubb JC, not include him in offense.... and work extra hard to find that consistent second scorer. 

 

 

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Here's where I differ from you.

If you take Stockton away from Malone...  Malone doesn't get into the Hall of Fame.  I say that because when Stockton retired... Malone immediately dropped in efficiency.   He went from being a 50% FG% to about a 43%.  It's not so much that it was about Stockton making Malone but more about the fact that Utah's gameplan under Sloan was always PNR with Stockton and Malone as the bread and butter. 

Stockton played his last two seasons with Malone in 2001-02 and 2002-03.  Stockton started 82 games both seasons.  Malone shot 45.4% with Stockton in 2001-02 and 46.2% with Stockton in 2002-03 from the field. 

Stockton retired after that at age 40 and Malone went to LA.  Without Stockton in 2003-04, Malone's efficiency increased as he shot 48.3% from the field in LA and then retired after that season at age 40.  (His scoring decreased but the efficiency increased).

I think Malone's dip in efficiency was more about getting old.  He was 38, 39 and 40 those 3 seasons.  There certainly was no big dip where he was super efficient under Stockton at these ages and inefficient without him.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

Stockton played his last two seasons with Malone in 2001-02 and 2002-03.  Stockton started 82 games both seasons.  Malone shot 45.4% with Stockton in 2001-02 and 46.2% with Stockton in 2002-03 from the field. 

Stockton retired after that at age 40 and Malone went to LA.  Without Stockton in 2003-04, Malone's efficiency increased as he shot 48.3% from the field in LA and then retired after that season at age 40.  (His scoring decreased but the efficiency increased).

I think Malone's dip in efficiency was more about getting old.  He was 38, 39 and 40 those 3 seasons.  There certainly was no big dip where he was super efficient under Stockton at these ages and inefficient without him.

I stand corrected.   Malone's drop was from 2000 to 2001... and Stockton was still there.  I cannot believe that it was Age.  It had to be something else.   His rise in efficiency was an effect of playing next to Shaq/Kobe in the triangle. 

 

[macdaddy]

Are we still claiming that we don't include JC in the offense?   He's second on the team in FGA.  

Not sure how we're making any judgements about Atlanta Bogi after 9 games. 

[AHF]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

I stand corrected.   Malone's drop was from 2000 to 2001... and Stockton was still there.  I cannot believe that it was Age.  It had to be something else.   His rise in efficiency was an effect of playing next to Shaq/Kobe in the triangle. 

 

Don't disagree.  For color, I don't think his rise had anything to do with the triangle and really were about him having a more limited role where he did less creating and took more open shots.  Still was well below vintage Malone in terms of efficiency.  But I think that is about age.  A 40 year old is rarely going to be as efficient as he was at 30.

[HawkItus]

Any judgement positive or negative is premature.   What happens with Collins is also a major consideration.  Just let things play out.

[Peoriabird]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Not sure how we're making any judgements about Atlanta Bogi after 9 games. 

Posters make judgements on other players with fewer games under their belt like Gallo.

[RedDawg#8]

Still very early, this is all just a warmup act for the Hawks team we will see after the break. 

If we can get to ASW wit ha .500 record or better, watch out. We will definitely need contributions from the additions as we make our  playoff push.