Build to Beat MIL ... or not?

[kg01]

I'm mad that I can't get the teams straight, but I foggily recall that Lebron's 1st year back with the Cavs was a Finals loss to GSW.

An issue cited in the loss was that they (CLE) built their team to beat SAS and were caught off guard by the Warriors, from a personnel standpoint.

We're all still smarting over the Bucks loss and how their size plagued us.  But next season will surely be totally different and a totally new path.

So do we bulk up on the bigs in anticipation of possibly playing MIL at some point?  If so, we could end up facing a team with a different makeup thus rendering the change(s) moot.

I'm in the mode of not being overly down on Capela as much.  His flaws are clear, but he was big for us throughout the season and is on a great deal.  I kinda hope we just continue to focus on getting better, in general.  I don't want us to fixate on the Bucks or the Embiid matchup.  Next year will bring challenges that we're not yet aware of.

[AHF]

I think the entire complexion of that matchup is changed with Cam and Hunter on the floor for us.  I would not over-react to Bobby Portis beasting (he has always been a guy who has streaks of dominant play and stretches of dormant play) against our bigs.  I think the JC/Gallo pairing and CC/OO pairings are good and with OO's development could be even better next season.  

If we have a chance to upgrade then we should do so but that is always the case.  Just build the best team we can be and not specifically to overcome the Bucks.  Next year we could be dealing with the Nets, Philly, Boston, etc. or maybe the Bucks.  Milwaukee will be among the very best teams on paper but they aren't a new Bulls dynasty or anything.  They could easily have lost in the second round this year or to us if Trae never goes down.  

Build the best overall team we can with the most tools to beat any team.  Fully with you on this, kg!

[Guest]

Hopefully teams are thinking about how to build their teams in anticipation of playing a fully healthy Atlanta Hawks squad. 

F...'em.

They have to play US!

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeFan said:

Hopefully teams are thinking about how to build their teams in anticipation of playing a fully healthy Atlanta Hawks squad. 

F...'em.

They have to play US!

Eggsactly my thinking.  And I agree with @AHF, the complexion of our team is drastically different with either Hunter or Camborghini fully healthy.  Or even just healthy enough to play.

Toss in Bogd at or near full strength and that's a completely different team than the one we just saw in the ECF.  It's why I'm dubious on all these reports that we need to make so many moves in the offseason.

"Standing pat", but getting all these dudes back, is a major move in and of itself.

No need to chase the Bucks or any other team.  They're gonna have ta chase us.

[REHawksFan]

28 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm mad that I can't get the teams straight, but I foggily recall that Lebron's 1st year back with the Cavs was a Finals loss to GSW.

An issue cited in the loss was that they (CLE) built their team to beat SAS and were caught off guard by the Warriors, from a personnel standpoint.

We're all still smarting over the Bucks loss and how their size plagued us.  But next season will surely be totally different and a totally new path.

So do we bulk up on the bigs in anticipation of possibly playing MIL at some point?  If so, we could end up facing a team with a different makeup thus rendering the change(s) moot.

I'm in the mode of not being overly down on Capela as much.  His flaws are clear, but he was big for us throughout the season and is on a great deal.  I kinda hope we just continue to focus on getting better, in general.  I don't want us to fixate on the Bucks or the Embiid matchup.  Next year will bring challenges that we're not yet aware of.

Reminds me of the Falcons after losing in the NFC Champ Game and they tried to build to beat the Packers and it was a total cluster.  I think the smart play is just to be versatile and have the ability to matchup with different types of teams.  I think it's smart to have a big big on the roster that can hold their own and body up against the Embiids, B Lopez of the world.  But I'm not suggesting they transition to that as the main C on the team.  That would be crazy.  The way the Hawks play works.  It worked this year and will work going forward, imo.  They just need to shore up some weaknesses.  And get healthy.  And older.  

 

 

 

[kg01]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

Reminds me of the Falcons after losing in the NFC Champ Game and they tried to build to beat the Packers and it was a total cluster.  I think the smart play is just to be versatile and have the ability to matchup with different types of teams.  I think it's smart to have a big big on the roster that can hold their own and body up against the Embiids, B Lopez of the world.  But I'm not suggesting they transition to that as the main C on the team.  That would be crazy.  The way the Hawks play works.  It worked this year and will work going forward, imo.  They just need to shore up some weaknesses.  And get healthy.  And older.  

It'd be funny if we can sign Boban for the cheap-low.

[sturt]

Answering the question, we perhaps fixate on MIL if we perceive that they're the GSW of our time... the irrefutable king of the hill.

I don't see it. Does anyone? Really?

Neither do I fixate on PHI, who presented similar "big" challenges.

We not only beat PHI with a highly-productive-as-if-not-even-injured Embiid, we beat them without Dre.

Would we have beat MIL with a healthy Trae? At worst, it's a 50/50 thing. Would we have beat MIL with a healthy Trae and a healthy Dre? Maybe not, but the odds drastically shift in our favor better than 50/50. So, altogether likely.

 

The stats show that when Dre-JC-CC played together this season, our defense was elite compared to others. (Had a CleaningTheGlass tweet on that just a week or so ago that made that point... could look it up again, but not now.)

So, the perception of necessity to change is flawed by the reality. It's a knee-jerk reaction. And bringing in a meaty big runs counter to how we like to play otherwise.

No roster is perfect. No style of play is perfect. You have to live with some weaknesses no matter what, but you attempt to choose the weaknesses that are less likely to result in losses in view of the strengths that accepting those weaknesses allow you enjoy, and win.

 

Will we make any changes at all?

Travis Schlenk lies a lot, of course. But if you believe what he told Kirschner, he's expecting a change at the #2 PG slot.

 

(And yes, tongue was planted firmly in cheek on that lying thing.)

 

On the third string... ie, the 11-15 guys who will almost never play in a playoff game anyhow... it's largely a question of what talent you can get for the money you have and the minutes-commitment that a given free agent is going to expect.

That's why Dieng, as much as I obviously love the guy (was banging the drum loudly and persistently when he was cut by MEM), isn't a real likely option... and why someone in the pool of the Mike Muscala's of the world is.

But even there, the overall philosophy (asserted in the other thread) remains that you want guys who are interchangeable parts with your first ten as best you can possibly get those, in case of injury.

They're not going to be nearly as good as the 1st and 2nd string guys, naturally, but similar enough that their presence on the floor in the case of an injury doesn't disrupt what you normally try to do.

[sillent]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I'm mad that I can't get the teams straight, but I foggily recall that Lebron's 1st year back with the Cavs was a Finals loss to GSW.

An issue cited in the loss was that they (CLE) built their team to beat SAS and were caught off guard by the Warriors, from a personnel standpoint.

We're all still smarting over the Bucks loss and how their size plagued us.  But next season will surely be totally different and a totally new path.

So do we bulk up on the bigs in anticipation of possibly playing MIL at some point?  If so, we could end up facing a team with a different makeup thus rendering the change(s) moot.

I'm in the mode of not being overly down on Capela as much.  His flaws are clear, but he was big for us throughout the season and is on a great deal.  I kinda hope we just continue to focus on getting better, in general.  I don't want us to fixate on the Bucks or the Embiid matchup.  Next year will bring challenges that we're not yet aware of.

I agree and we must remember it's not like the Bucks swept us. The series could have swung either way depending on circumstances. We still need atleast one extra big (7ft) for situations like that but that doesn't mean reconstruct the whole roster. Our roster is pretty much constructed to combat against any team that's just the one hole that may be missing the most.

[macdaddy]

IF we're going to gear up to beat anyone it's the Nets.   Even without two healthy superstars they were one toe away from the ECF.   If they have their full compliment then they are the team to beat.   

[BangHolman]

We're well built to beat anyone right now. We just need to stay healthy. Otherwise, it's small tweaks likes adding a big third center for defense, a back-up PG, and a vet min wing (probably Solo). But with that said, our building or re-tooling only becomes interesting after we know where and how the JC domino falls.

[Diesel]

57 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm mad that I can't get the teams straight, but I foggily recall that Lebron's 1st year back with the Cavs was a Finals loss to GSW.

An issue cited in the loss was that they (CLE) built their team to beat SAS and were caught off guard by the Warriors, from a personnel standpoint.

We're all still smarting over the Bucks loss and how their size plagued us.  But next season will surely be totally different and a totally new path.

So do we bulk up on the bigs in anticipation of possibly playing MIL at some point?  If so, we could end up facing a team with a different makeup thus rendering the change(s) moot.

I'm in the mode of not being overly down on Capela as much.  His flaws are clear, but he was big for us throughout the season and is on a great deal.  I kinda hope we just continue to focus on getting better, in general.  I don't want us to fixate on the Bucks or the Embiid matchup.  Next year will bring challenges that we're not yet aware of.

I'm noticing what the Bucks are doing to Phoenix and realizing that they did the same to us.

Crush with bigs... Lopez/Giannis.

Put the 2 guard with PJ Tucker or Connaughton.   The thing is that those two are really SFs that play like PFs and they are maniacs for rebounds.  They are dominating Booker on the boards. 

So when we play a team like Milwaukee, our rebounding game is critical. 

Do we try to improve that?  Like you say, we run the risk of a perimeter oriented Philly team rising.  Or a triple threat Brooklyn team coming up. 

I say we develop to our strengths and develop to cover our weakness.  I think us having healthy wings will make a big difference.   We can get a big big.. but I wouldn't change much for him. 

[sillent]

53 minutes ago, sturt said:

Answering the question, we perhaps fixate on MIL if we perceive that they're the GSW of our time... the irrefutable king of the hill.

I don't see it. Does anyone? Really?

Neither do I fixate on PHI, who presented similar "big" challenges.

We not only beat PHI with a highly-productive-as-if-not-even-injured Embiid, we beat them without Dre.

Would we have beat MIL with a healthy Trae? At worst, it's a 50/50 thing. Would we have beat MIL with a healthy Trae and a healthy Dre? Maybe not, but the odds drastically shift in our favor better than 50/50. So, altogether likely.

 

The stats show that when Dre-JC-CC played together this season, our defense was elite compared to others. (Had a CleaningTheGlass tweet on that just a week or so ago that made that point... could look it up again, but not now.)

So, the perception of necessity to change is flawed by the reality. It's a knee-jerk reaction. And bringing in a meaty big runs counter to how we like to play otherwise.

No roster is perfect. No style of play is perfect. You have to live with some weaknesses no matter what, but you attempt to choose the weaknesses that are less likely to result in losses in view of the strengths that accepting those weaknesses allow you enjoy, and win.

 

Will we make any changes at all?

Travis Schlenk lies a lot, of course. But if you believe what he told Kirschner, he's expecting a change at the #2 PG slot.

 

(And yes, tongue was planted firmly in cheek on that lying thing.)

 

On the third string... ie, the 11-15 guys who will almost never play in a playoff game anyhow... it's largely a question of what talent you can get for the money you have and the minutes-commitment that a given free agent is going to expect.

That's why Dieng, as much as I obviously love the guy (was banging the drum loudly and persistently when he was cut by MEM), isn't a real likely option... and why someone in the pool of the Mike Muscala's of the world is.

But even there, the overall philosophy (asserted in the other thread) remains that you want guys who are interchangeable parts with your first ten as best you can possibly get those, in case of injury.

They're not going to be nearly as good as the 1st and 2nd string guys, naturally, but similar enough that their presence on the floor in the case of an injury doesn't disrupt what you normally try to do.

You had me all the way up into the Travis lies statement. I agree with everything else but I must say one of the main reasons I respect Travis is because of his honesty.

He said he needs to get the next Steph, Klay and Draymond. He went straight into the 2018 draft and grabbed our version with Trae Young, Kevin Huerter and Omari Spellman.

Omari didn't work he went and got Clint/Gallo/Knight/Bruno/OO to duplicate Draymond. Doubled down on our version of Klay with Bogi and got us an older Trae in Lou Will when he saw that worked.

He said he wanted Hunter and liked Cam for yrs and got them (Our Durant like X factor in the way of Baby Kawhi and Paul George). 

I know some of us hate any Warriors reference but we must understand that's where he came from and they did quite well at the time.. Everything he's said so far he's done.

He's said he would get the back up point guard long term to run with Trae. Everybody is assuming it's a vet but I don't see any long term vets available. I do see over 12 point guards in this up and coming draft that all have the potential to be special in certain areas. 

Again I loved all your points except that one because if it's one thing I respect and admire him for is telling us what he's going to do. Doing it and it being successful even when everyone knew it was coming because he said it. That's a cerebral GM. He says what he's going to do. Does it and he knows they can't stop it.

Crazy for me is I cringed at many of the things he said because I thought there were better options. Cringed even more when I watched him do it but then when I did my research on why I understood. Plus I definitely couldn't argue with any of the results I just gotta tip my hat.

Edited July 15, 2021 by sillent

[Spud2nique]

You never scheme a entire season or roster on the chances of playing a certain team. And like @LongTimeFan said, they should be worried about us. 
 

Just like you play to your own style during a game, you build your own style off the court, never follow suit or fixate on a certain opponent.

 

Not taking anything away from the Bucks, but I’d bet they aren’t here next year and we have to deal with the Nets or something. 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

Neither do I fixate on

Thingram anymore.  

 

Oh come on Stu, that was good. 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, sillent said:

You had me all the way up into the Travis lies statement. I agree with everything else but I must say one of the main reasons I respect Travis is because of his honesty.

He said he needs to get the next Steph, Klay and Draymond. He went straight into the 2018 draft and grabbed our version with Trae Young, Kevin Huerter and Omari Spellman.

Omari didn't work he went and got Clint/Gallo/Knight/Bruno/OO to duplicate Draymond. Doubled down on our version of Klay with Bogi and got us an older Trae in Lou Will when he saw that worked.

He said he wanted Hunter and liked Cam for yrs and got them (Our Durant like X factor in the way of Baby Kawhi and Paul George). 

I know some of us hate any Warriors reference but we must understand that's where he came from and they did quite well at the time.. Everything he's said so far he's done.

He's said he would get the back up point guard long term to run with Trae. Everybody is assuming it's a vet but I don't see any long term vets available. I do see over 12 point guards in this up and coming draft that all have the potential to be special in certain areas. 

Again I loved all your points except that one because if it's one thing I respect and admire him for is telling us what he's going to do. Doing it and it being successful even when everyone knew it was coming because he said it. That's a cerebral GM. He says what he's going to do. Does it and he knows they can't stop it.

Crazy for me is I cringed at many of the things he said because I thought there were better options. Cringed even more when I watched him do it but then when I did my research on why I understood. Plus I definitely couldn't argue with any of the results I just gotta tip my hat.

I actually think Schlenk does lie to us .. but I prefer it that way.  I don't think he outright tries to mislead us, I just think he gives enough info to keep the fanbase 'informed' but doesn't give away his actual plan.

I don't think he truly wanted to "recreate" GS here, at least not in the exact form.  And, even if he did initially, he did a good job pivoting from trying to make a pure clone of the Warriors.

I trust what he's doing but I'm fine with him being a little evasive in his media comments.

Contrast that with a GM I absolutely can't stand ... David Griffin.  Guy couldn't stay out of the media, telling truths, lies, and whatever else kept his name out there.  That's a guy who you can't trust in his actions or words.  And that franchise is well on their way to losing another star player.  Just shutup and do a good job, the attention will come.

[warcore]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Camborghini

NICE! A Cam nickname that doesn't suck!

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, warcore said:

NICE! A Cam nickname that doesn't suck!

To be clear, I did not make that up.  Can't remember where I got it, wish I could credit where it's due.

[marco102]

21 minutes ago, kg01 said:

To be clear, I did not make that up.  Can't remember where I got it, wish I could credit where it's due.

This is where I first saw it.  Probably the same for you? I actually love that nickname. 

Edit:  To add to the topic discussion. I'm in the boat we round out the edges.  I believe the 20th pick will be used on a guard with some upside and the 2nd rounder will have super upside.  I think we hit the free agency pool for someone with some girth to help with the bigger teams like Philly and Milwaukee.

I  think the assumption that the reason the Bucks beat up on the Hawks was due to our bigs being out worked in inaccurate. It was Jrue and Middleton getting anywhere they wanting because of poor perimeter defense which caused our bigs to over help and be out of position for the rebounds.  Like others have stated, I believe Cam, Hunter and a healthy Bogi will alleviate this as they are all solid rebounders and defenders. 

I don't want to see wholesale changes.  We need to know what we have with a healthy squad before consolidating the talent for an "upgrade". After listening to Nate's interview on siriusxm, I'm confident John will be back. 

Would you guys consider Alex Len for that third big role? He'll probably be cheap and available and really enjoyed playing with the young guys.  There are plenty of solid options for the third big. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by marco102

[Gray Mule]

Do we move now?  Or, do we wait until mid season when the trading deadline faces various teams and they must decide whether they are going to the playoffs or the lottery?

Perhaps we do both.  Your thoughts - - - -

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Do we move now?  Or, do we wait until mid season when the trading deadline faces various teams and they must decide whether they are going to the playoffs or the lottery?

Perhaps we do both.  Your thoughts - - - -

We wait... unless a can't miss deal comes along. Everything must be weighed but unless something just knocks our socks off, we're still the team that was two games away from playing for the Chip... in a legit offseason.