So we just going to avoid this topic about “Wing Twist”?

[Final_quest]

17 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Everything you're saying is basically you want to win as many games as possible RIGHT NOW.  The entire point of my post is that we are not under some urgent timeline.  Sure, Cam should be made available for the right player at the right price, but you guys are acting like our success will be determined by if we can ship him out and consolidate or not.  I'm perfectly happy letting him continue to develop with bench minutes.

We're not in a position to pick up meaningful free agents anymore and trading comes with obvious risks, so in my opinion, developing drafted talent is probably our most likely chance of sustained success.  We should absolutely consolidate if a key difference maker comes available but don't need desperately look to ship out our young guys.

It’s not all about winning right now, but I think you are dodging something.  Cam was largely predicted to help us win now, and for the 4th year in a row has not delivered.  You haven’t addressed that the excitement for THIS season has completely changed.  
If I want to win in the future why would I bet on a player with severe flaws that doesn’t meet expectations?  This is as much about the future as the present.  

I would add keeping ALL of your draft picks is a flawed strategy.  

[macdaddy]

16 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Cam was largely predicted to help us win now, and for the 4th year in a row has not delivered.

Not to jump in the middle but Cam just started his 3rd year.  he's played 99 nba games. 

[JeffS17]

52 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

It’s not all about winning right now, but I think you are dodging something.  Cam was largely predicted to help us win now, and for the 4th year in a row has not delivered.  You haven’t addressed that the excitement for THIS season has completely changed.  
If I want to win in the future why would I bet on a player with severe flaws that doesn’t meet expectations?  This is as much about the future as the present.  

I would add keeping ALL of your draft picks is a flawed strategy.  

Cam is in his 3rd season, not 4th.  And it's effectively the start of his 2nd season, given between injuries and covid he only played a full seasons worth of games in the first 2 seasons...

So for a guy who has <100 games played in the NBA, I'm not that quick to judge him.  And to address the excitement for THIS season, I personally still have it.  I'm wearing my Reddish jersey as we speak getting ready to go to the game tonight.  Cam started off hot and now he's been in a slump.  He's still shooting 38% from 3 on the season and he has shown flashes of playmaking here and there.  He's still super raw and needs time.  As @aali34 mentioned, Collins came into the league more polished than Cam but no one would have predicted him a $25M/yr player when he was 100 games in.  Most didn't feel he was that just a year ago.  I see no reason we cannot be patient with Cam's development unless a truly game-changing player becomes available.

Who is it that you want to package Cam + others + picks for right now?  I don't know of any deals that make sense, so I would love to put the ball in your court and give me some scenarios to consider over keeping/developing Cam with bench minutes.

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Cam hasn't developed into a starting caliber player but he's not some G league scrub.  He can absolutely play bench minutes and contribute while improving.  Let's not pretend like Cam getting minutes instead of Solo is going to lose us a bunch of games.

I agree, Cam is not starting caliber... but in a way, that's part of the problem.   We went out to get Bogi because we came to the conclusion that Cam was a long way away from being ready to be starting caliber.   When we picked up Bogdan, he was a third year player, coming off the bench. 

Here's my question.  When you compare those two guys, what do you get?

How about this....  Josh Childress was a better player after two seasons than Cam is ....  And we know how much Chillz sucked. 

Bottom line, Reddish is exciting and his potential is great but he's far from it.   He doesn't get a starter's role no time soon and if he keeps regressing, his bench role could be in jeopardy because we don't have time for mistakes that he should be overcoming. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

It's hard to say, Cam shows flashes of a star, then he shows qualities of a 3 and D+ player which are extremely rare to find but his mirrored with inconsistency. Cam is more of a talented prospect still growing into his own role. 

If Cam can develop into a Klay Thompson lite with better defense, even that would be appealing but he's no where near that yet. His games played is finally in the year 2 category so I still believe we have a lot of development left but we gotta get him hitting middies and close range shots better. He's been awful in those areas to the point his 37.5% is compromised by it. 

37.5/91 with a good FTA is of quality. But his 2FG is historically awful. His defense has been very good of late but he was hit or miss at it this year compared to last year. Overall, I don't know if anyone knows where Cam will be in 5 years production wise. He's kinda a wild on the swing chart to the point you start looking at guys like Nick Young as comps but young Nick never had Cam BBIQ or defense which is massive. That said, Nick even more consistent by year 3 than Cam. 

[NBASupes]

22 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I agree, Cam is not starting caliber... but in a way, that's part of the problem.   We went out to get Bogi because we came to the conclusion that Cam was a long way away from being ready to be starting caliber.   When we picked up Bogdan, he was a third year player, coming off the bench. 

Here's my question.  When you compare those two guys, what do you get?

How about this....  Josh Childress was a better player after two seasons than Cam is ....  And we know how much Chillz sucked. 

Bottom line, Reddish is exciting and his potential is great but he's far from it.   He doesn't get a starter's role no time soon and if he keeps regressing, his bench role could be in jeopardy because we don't have time for mistakes that he should be overcoming. 

 

 

Chillz didn't suck early on. He was a quality role player for his time in the NBA. I would say by year 4, we knew what Chillz could give us which is production. Chillz was productive as a role player. His issue is, his shooting with range just was underwhelming even back then when shooting wasn't a big deal. He was a slasher who lived off contact. 

You must not remember Chillz if you think he sucked for his time. 

[Spud2nique]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

If Cam

I’m starting to get tired of those words..

 

[Spud2nique]

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You must not remember Chillz if you think he sucked for his time. 

I don’t know what Diesel said about Chillz but I tend to agree more that he did suck even for his time. I watched him at Stanford and he was the ONE dude imo didn’t want us taking AT ALL, BUT TO TAKE HIM 6th was stupid.

I wanted Iggy and Smoove in the draft. We got one. Although in hindsight, Iggy and Smoove shooting in years 1-3 would have been the ugliest thing to watch in the history of basketball.

Childress should have been a pick in the late teens or early 20’s. Waste pick.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I don’t know what Diesel said about Chillz but I tend to agree more that he did suck even for his time. I watched him at Stanford and he was the ONE dude imo didn’t want us taking AT ALL, BUT TO TAKE HIM 6th was stupid.

I wanted Iggy and Smoove in the draft. We got one. Although in hindsight, Iggy and Smoove shooting in years 1-3 would have been the ugliest thing to watch in the history of basketball.

Childress should have been a pick in the late teens or early 20’s. Waste pick.

I wanted Iggy and Deng more than the others but Chillz didn't suck. He just was limited even in the era where everyone was damn near limited.

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’m starting to get tired of those words..

 

As long as he's young, he will get those words as did JC and most of our young players. 

[JTB]

15 hours ago, Diesel said:

Not so fast my friend.   We're not a rebuilding team anymore.   We are actually a team vying for a good playoff position and wins vs good teams.   Do you know how back breaking it is to take a lead with the first team and then to have the second team fumble that lead away because they are allowed to make mistakes?  That's fine for a team like Orlando.. but we're not in that spot anymore.   We're trying to be like GS.  We're trying to win.   I'm not saying dump Cam.  I'm saying stop lowering the bar for Cam. 

Yeah I didn’t mean it like that though . I don’t think Cam can make reckless mistakes but he can make a mistake or two off the bench opposed to being a starter.

[Spud2nique]

23 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

As long as he's young, he will get those words as did JC and most of our young players. 

Possibly but I think it’s more of the fact that Cam was heralded since jr. high school like Marvin Bagley, and they are both struggling to find themselves in the pros, JC was never a upper echelon recruit by any means I don’t believe.

Expectations are high for Cam, we better start seeing it soon.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Not to jump in the middle but Cam just started his 3rd year.  he's played 99 nba games. 

I am saying the 4th year in a row he is failing to meet his expectations.  That includes Duke.  He wasn’t picked because he was a college stand out.  
It sounds a little desperate to focus on number of games played.  Do we do the same thing for third year players who got tons of nights of DNPCD?  
So many excuses for this guy.  Not much accountability.  

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

So many excuses for this guy.  Not much accountability.  

I’m gonna give him the benefit of the doubt this year but if he’s doing this in year 4, we didn’t fare as well as we all were hoping.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Chillz didn't suck early on. He was a quality role player for his time in the NBA. I would say by year 4, we knew what Chillz could give us which is production. Chillz was productive as a role player. His issue is, his shooting with range just was underwhelming even back then when shooting wasn't a big deal. He was a slasher who lived off contact. 

You must not remember Chillz if you think he sucked for his time. 

No, I was being funny.   Chillz was a role player who I think Cam compares well to.  But like Chillz, until he realizes his potential, he will be an off the bench energy guy who can give defense and some shooting.  He doesn't get the Bazemore elevation. 

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Who is it that you want to package Cam + others + picks for right now?  I don't know of any deals that make sense, so I would love to put the ball in your court and give me some scenarios to consider over keeping/developing Cam with bench minutes.

I am leaving it to the GM to figure out who is available in a trade.  One name I like is Freddy VanVleet., but trade targets would be an entire new thread.  

[NBASupes]

32 minutes ago, Diesel said:

No, I was being funny.   Chillz was a role player who I think Cam compares well to.  But like Chillz, until he realizes his potential, he will be an off the bench energy guy who can give defense and some shooting.  He doesn't get the Bazemore elevation. 

I disagree 

[NBASupes]

50 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I am saying the 4th year in a row he is failing to meet his expectations.  That includes Duke.  He wasn’t picked because he was a college stand out.  
It sounds a little desperate to focus on number of games played.  Do we do the same thing for third year players who got tons of nights of DNPCD?  
So many excuses for this guy.  Not much accountability.  

I wouldn't say he's failing to meet expectations outside of people like me. He's playing good defense and his range has translated. He showed in flashes of the player I think he can become.

The issue with Cam is consistency. That's what we want and need from Cam and haven't gotten it. It looks different every night. Whereas Kev, Bogi, Trae, Hunter, JC, and Clint do the same thing every night, just with different varies of success. Cam just isn't consistent at all. We really don't know what we will get on a night to night basis. It was like that at Duke as well and it's been like that throughout his career. That's something he has to find within himself. He's young so he has time but he better be looking and looking hard. 

[NBASupes]

I've said this name in the past but Lonzo Ball is a good comp for Cam. He too struggled with consistency, finishing and mid shooting and most Importantly, with his confidence. So makes sure he works on his game to fix issues even if some aren't fixable. 

[Diesel]

22 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree 

You saying that we do need to make him a starter and pay him the way we paid Bazemore?