So we just going to avoid this topic about “Wing Twist”?

[Diesel]

26 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I am leaving it to the GM to figure out who is available in a trade.  One name I like is Freddy VanVleet., but trade targets would be an entire new thread.  

My Package is still Gallo/Bogi/Cam to PTL,   Dame to LAC,   PG13 to us. 

Fred VanVleet is a good player but Nah.

If we trade for somebody, the trade out to net us a legit superstar to play alongside Trae... and more specifically, a 3 and D guy.   Of Course, that's what we want Cam to become.  However, he has to move towards that. 

 

[NBASupes]

30 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You saying that we do need to make him a starter and pay him the way we paid Bazemore?

I didn't say that, I just said I disagree with that post. I don't see Cam anywhere near similar to Chillz and honestly, Chillz was better at this stage but you knew his potential was limited even then, Cam on the other hand, his is massive. 

I didn't like how we paid Bazemore and everyone knows that. I am not sure how much Cam will cost but I would rule against an overpay unless he becomes consistent and very productive 

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I wouldn't say he's failing to meet expectations outside of people like me. He's playing good defense and his range has translated. He showed in flashes of the player I think he can become.

This is my point.  He was on potential breakout star lists entering the season.  You guys believe he is in range, but we stopped commenting on how he is a budding star around here. This is what nba.com is posting about Cam.  It's well below the expectations I remember:

Depth can be a secret sauce in the regular-season. It fosters competition. But such competition -- and hovering contract situations -- can build stress that manifests in minor shot-chasing.

That could be infecting Reddish, jacking about four pull-up jumpers per game -- well above his career average.

Reddish has made only 30% on career pull-up 3s, and 33% of pull-up 2s -- not enough to justify inside the arc and hoisting with plenty of time on the shot clock:

Reddish has 10 assists in 12 games. It's hard for any perimeter player to record so few dimes.

 

The Hawks have scored 117.3 points per 100 possessions with Reddish on the bench, and 95.9 when he plays -- larger than the gap between the league's best and worst offenses.

That's not all on Reddish, of course. Atlanta's bench mob lineups are pretty punchless. But it's somewhat telling that Atlanta's offense with Reddish has been about as bad regardless of whether Young is out there too

[NBASupes]

22 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

This is my point.  He was on potential breakout star lists entering the season.  You guys believe he is in range, but we stopped commenting on how he is a budding star around here. This is what nba.com is posting about Cam.  It's well below the expectations I remember:

Depth can be a secret sauce in the regular-season. It fosters competition. But such competition -- and hovering contract situations -- can build stress that manifests in minor shot-chasing.

That could be infecting Reddish, jacking about four pull-up jumpers per game -- well above his career average.

Reddish has made only 30% on career pull-up 3s, and 33% of pull-up 2s -- not enough to justify inside the arc and hoisting with plenty of time on the shot clock:

Reddish has 10 assists in 12 games. It's hard for any perimeter player to record so few dimes.

 

The Hawks have scored 117.3 points per 100 possessions with Reddish on the bench, and 95.9 when he plays -- larger than the gap between the league's best and worst offenses.

That's not all on Reddish, of course. Atlanta's bench mob lineups are pretty punchless. But it's somewhat telling that Atlanta's offense with Reddish has been about as bad regardless of whether Young is out there too

Man, some of that is situational without Trae on the court. If we replaced Coop with Wright next year, we would see Cam numbers improve. 

Reddish been improving his passing of late. His vision has never been the question, it's his mindset of making a decision before he even gets the ball. You can't answer a lot of Cam questions broadly because there is a lot more to it than that.

[aali34]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Reddish been improving his passing of late. His vision has never been the question, it's his mindset of making a decision before he even gets the ball. You can't answer a lot of Cam questions broadly because there is a lot more to it than that.

The last two games his shot attempts have gone down in part to him not trying to score every-time he touches the ball. I'm hoping that it's him realizing that making the right play is better than getting points up.

He gotta position himself to be in scoring position better though, he's been freezing himself out a little bit.

[AHF]

16 hours ago, aali34 said:

The last two games his shot attempts have gone down in part to him not trying to score every-time he touches the ball. I'm hoping that it's him realizing that making the right play is better than getting points up.

He gotta position himself to be in scoring position better though, he's been freezing himself out a little bit.

While he occasionally has had success really asserting himself, his best sustained stretches have been when he let the game come to him a bit more.  He just doesn't have the polish to be able to effectively 'force' his shot unless it is one of his particularly hot games and those are pretty rare (and his gameplan should not be built around them).  I still view him as a potential breakthrough player this season.

[JayBirdHawk]

19 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The issue with Cam is consistency. That's what we want and need from Cam and haven't gotten it. It looks different every night.

All this. ^^

We just need him to focus on the things he does well and is good at and limit the weaknesses.

There is still a lot left for him to master and figure out. It takes some guys longer, not all guys come out the box ready made like Trae. 

Last night was Cam's 100th NBA game - and what a game it was.

Hopefully we see more of this version of Cam.

[mrhonline]

To the "it's only been 100 games for Cam" crowd, I'm not sure why you think that's a low number. 2500 NBA minutes with plenty of touches is nothing to sneeze at.

It's ignoring the fact that the Hawks have until about the end of January to complete their first important evaluation on him, and it's also ignoring the fact that there are three wings above him in the depth chart.

Could he put it all together? Sure. Does he have a ton of time to do it because "it's only been 2500 minutes?" Nope.

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

To the "it's only been 100 games for Cam" crowd, I'm not sure why you think that's a low number. 2500 NBA minutes with plenty of touches is nothing to sneeze at.

It's ignoring the fact that the Hawks have until about the end of January to complete their first important evaluation on him, and it's also ignoring the fact that there are three wings above him in the depth chart.

Could he put it all together? Sure. Does he have a ton of time to do it because "it's only been 2500 minutes?" Nope.

Because it is a low number when you actually contextualize the games... 58 of his games were his rookie year where the Hawks were not focusing on winning basketball (as we are now).  He was also coming off injury the first half of that season and not looking healthy.  Then he gets only 26 games at the beginning of last season and now another 16 games this year... he's had zero continuity.  He's also looked like dog shit for parts of those periods but I don't think that's much different than most of our guys in their first 100 games.  Trae was an inefficient chucker his first 100 games, but look where he is now.  Look at JC's development from his first 100 games until now -- he's a completely different player with a more refined skillset and plays winning basketball.

You're 100% right that the Hawks have to make a call on him this offseason, if not sooner if there are players we go for at the trade deadline.  It's unfortunate he hasn't had more time but between injuries and covid it is what it is.  I think it's likely we can extend him on a team friendly deal and in 2-3 years he could be one of the highest value players in the league.  I'm not sure where the urgency is coming from for a lot of people on this board.  We don't need to consolidate just to consolidate.  

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, mrhonline said:

To the "it's only been 100 games for Cam" crowd, I'm not sure why you think that's a low number. 2500 NBA minutes with plenty of touches is nothing to sneeze at.

It's ignoring the fact that the Hawks have until about the end of January to complete their first important evaluation on him, and it's also ignoring the fact that there are three wings above him in the depth chart.

Could he put it all together? Sure. Does he have a ton of time to do it because "it's only been 2500 minutes?" Nope.

As @JeffS17 pointed out context matters.

We know that Cam was on the trade block previously, so I think the front office has an ongoing evaluation. I think they'd have to be blown away with offers.

There WERE three wings ahead of him, with Hunter injured, again - he's in the same boat as Cam.

I'll say what I said during the offseason- both Hunter and Reddish have a lot to prove with their play and consistency to get their early extensions, otherwise they will hit RFAcy or traded.

[macdaddy]

I'm not understanding the viewpoint that if Cam doesn't 'put it all together' and become a star in the league then he's a failure.   He may just end up being a really good 2 way wing off the bench.    We've drafted guys higher who did much less than Cam has already done.   

[JeffS17]

36 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not understanding the viewpoint that if Cam doesn't 'put it all together' and become a star in the league then he's a failure.   He may just end up being a really good 2 way wing off the bench.    We've drafted guys higher who did much less than Cam has already done.   

Yeah, works out that way sometimes.  Everyone can see Cam's potential so they're judging him more harshly than say Kevin Heurter who has in my mind overperformed expectations, especially on defense where he's been making some strides.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not understanding the viewpoint that if Cam doesn't 'put it all together' and become a star in the league then he's a failure.   

That is definitely not how I see it.  Obviously becoming a star is the dream but if he becomes an offensively inconsistent, defensive wing that would not be shocking based on his career to date.  In that sense he could be definitively less than a star but still an important contributor like Jerami Grant (who was a career 30% 3pt shooter after 4 seasons), Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (very inconsistent offensively), Jai Crowder, etc. and that would not be a failure.  It would certainly disappoint some of us if he couldn't do better than those guys but they have all played important roles in the rotation of some very good teams.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Because it is a low number when you actually contextualize the games... 58 of his games were his rookie year where the Hawks were not focusing on winning basketball (as we are now).  He was also coming off injury the first half of that season and not looking healthy.  Then he gets only 26 games at the beginning of last season and now another 16 games this year... he's had zero continuity.  He's also looked like dog shit for parts of those periods but I don't think that's much different than most of our guys in their first 100 games.  Trae was an inefficient chucker his first 100 games, but look where he is now.  Look at JC's development from his first 100 games until now -- he's a completely different player with a more refined skillset and plays winning basketball.

You're 100% right that the Hawks have to make a call on him this offseason, if not sooner if there are players we go for at the trade deadline.  It's unfortunate he hasn't had more time but between injuries and covid it is what it is.  I think it's likely we can extend him on a team friendly deal and in 2-3 years he could be one of the highest value players in the league.  I'm not sure where the urgency is coming from for a lot of people on this board.  We don't need to consolidate just to consolidate.  

Trae and JC showed a lot more in their first 100 games.  Cam had a fairly bad rookie campaign, he has in fact looked very different from Trae and JC in his first 100 games.  You can't have an honest conversation about Cam if you want to compare his experience to some of the best Hawks rookie seasons of the past 25 years.  Trae consistently won rookie of the month and JC was a starter on the all rookie team shooting above 55%.  
The only urgency for trading him comes from the circumstances with the trade deadline, and the ability to take advantage of a contract like Gallo.  Once Gallo's deal expires, we are already capped out and won't have a chance to make a deal with an expiring like his.  It's not simply consolidating just because you are bored.  It's an opportunity with a limited window.  You only do it, if there is a good deal on the table.  I don't think urgency is the right word.  I think we need to be strategic and opportunistic.
This past summer I stated that I think the most likely result for Cam is a defensive player with a streaky and flawed offensive game.  If he can put together more than a few games, I could change my mind.  

[JeffS17]

15 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Cam had a fairly bad rookie campaign, he has in fact looked very different from Trae and JC in his first 100 games.

Again, he was recovering from a core muscle injury the beginning of the rookie season.  He looked excellent the second half of the year.  Context matters

 

17 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I think the most likely result for Cam is a defensive player with a streaky and flawed offensive game.

This is what he already is -- not sure if I'd say the most likely "result" of him is never getting better.  I think more of Cam myself.

[JayBirdHawk]

22 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Trae and JC showed a lot more in their first 100 games.

...and therein lies the rub - not all rookies develop at the same rate. 2 years ago, I said Trae spoiled a lot of Hawks fans when he busted out after struggling his first 2 months, so we all have those expectations for Cam and Hunter. Collins played under Bud and behind Milsap as a rookie when we were trying to make the playoffs. 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not understanding the viewpoint that if Cam doesn't 'put it all together' and become a star in the league then he's a failure.   He may just end up being a really good 2 way wing off the bench.    We've drafted guys higher who did much less than Cam has already done.   

Because Spud only buys “stars” jerseys and own a Cam. We don’t want no mediocre. -T.I. 

[Final_quest]

37 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

...and therein lies the rub - not all rookies develop at the same rate. 2 years ago, I said Trae spoiled a lot of Hawks fans when he busted out after struggling his first 2 months, so we all have those expectations for Cam and Hunter. Collins played under Bud and behind Milsap as a rookie when we were trying to make the playoffs. 

I was actually making the point that Cam was not comparable to Trae and JC.  When you say Cam struggled like they did, it's only correct in the sense that, "Everyone struggles."

[JCDBaptist]

On 11/16/2021 at 9:20 PM, JTB said:

Not a fan of Siakam at the 3. I’m still ok with us keeping Wingstop (Cam & Hunter) long term because I do still believe they will both develop into good players. I just think perhaps  due to Traes quick offensive development that he’s shown to impact the game greatly as we’ve seen, we as fans may have subconsciously rushed Hunter and Cam to be something they aren’t ready to be right now while at the same time not giving the other young player Huerter his props for being more consistent, more ready, and more impactful than Wingstop overall.

Not being negative about those two…we still need Hunter and Cam for many reasons. Just like last playoffs we needed hunter to lockdown Randle and he did just that, not even fully healthy!

Those two both still have great potential but a lesser role on the team may benefit them both or like cam is doing playing  6th man (somewhat) allows him to make those mistakes while gaining the experience. Hunter should be a full time 3 like others have suggested and his role should be just 3 & D. I feel fans like myself and maybe somewhat the coaching staff has tried to force hunter into a consistent scoring option and he’s not there yet to give us that on a consistent basis but the potential is there.

 

With the above said….I would say right now Cam and Hunter are situational starters and not necessarily consistent starters like Huerter and Bogi can be since they play better with Trae than hunter and Cam do currently.

Can you love a post instead of like. Post of the year so far.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

Quote

Clint Capela finally looks back to normal after a brutal start to the season. Danilo Gallinari is heating up. Kevin Huerter has shown he’s a good connective piece in the starting rotation. Cam Reddish is finally playing within the flow of the offense. 

So my first question to you is what’s encouraged you with where the Hawks currently are and what gives you pause that this team may not be as good as last season? 

John Hollinger: It’s amazing how much better the Hawks looked once they started playing home games against bad teams rather than road games against good ones. It’s almost as if strength of schedule matters.

A lot of the early concerns were about the Hawks’ offense — whether Trae Young could adjust to the new officiating and whether Nate McMillan’s attack was too midrange-heavy. This makes sense because Atlanta was built as an offensive team — the peak version of this club is elite offense and good-enough defense. However, you look up today and the Hawks are ranked fifth in offense despite a meh start to the year from Trae (by his standards) and below-par starts from Bogdan Bogdanovic and De’Andre Hunter. 

Instead, it’s the defense that has to be the greater concern. Atlanta ranks 28th in defense as of Sunday morning, and it doesn’t seem like a particularly fluky 28th. Atlanta doesn’t have outlier opponent 3-point stats or anything; instead, they’re the second-worst team against 2-point shots (55.0 percent), fifth-worst in the basket area (72.1 percent), and have allowed the third-most dunks. 

The dunks are perhaps baked into how they play — the Hawks gave up the second-most last year — but it seems clear Clint Capela’s rim protection is not at the level of a year ago, and that losing Onyeka Okongwu probably cost them something here, too. Given that Young is a non-factor on this end and the perimeter players aren’t exactly stoppers either — especially with Hunter either injured or ineffective most of this year — and it’s a formula for problems.

 

Quote

Kirschner: So let’s have a conversation about the pride and joy of your Virginia Cavaliers, De’Andre Hunter. He’s undergone three surgeries in 2021 (two on his meniscus and now one on his wrist). He played 23 games last season and will miss at least a quarter of this season. Before he hurt his wrist, I thought Hunter looked a step slow defensively (outside of a great opening night performance against Luka Doncic) and his penchant for taking contested jumpers was killing the offense. 

Hawks fans may not like me saying this but the team looks better with Huerter in the starting rotation over Hunter because of his passing ability and shotmaking from the perimeter. Even when Hunter comes back, the Hawks should strongly consider bringing Hunter off the bench until he proves he’s worthy of being in the starting rotation.  The player we mostly saw this season before his wrist injury didn’t look like someone who needed to be written into the starting lineup with a Sharpie. 

 

Quote

Kirschner: I have to bring up Reddish too now that we just talked about Hunter. Over the past few games, Reddish has looked much better offensively. He’s letting the offense come to him instead of trying to take opponents off the dribble and settling for stepback jumpers. I’m not sure why he thought that was the key to long-term success, but alas. Reddish is much better when his feet are set and he’s standing in the corner waiting for a pass. He’s 13-of-27 on his corner 3s this season and his efficiency everywhere else on the floor is well below average. 

Hollinger: I’m very encouraged by his improved play so far this season, and in particular the fact he’s shooting 36.8 percent from 3 and 87.5 percent from the line. I’ve always been concerned about Reddish’s long-term trendline as a shooter because his form seems… suboptimal. But so far this year he’s been on target.

Bigger picture, I think Reddish can check a lot of boxes as a big wing who can make 3s but also has capabilities as a secondary initiator… with emphasis on secondary. Get him on the move on the second side, or with the defense already moving, or make the decisions and ball-handling a little easier for him, and he can get stuff done..........If I’m Atlanta, though, I want to ride this out a little longer. Big wings with perimeter skills are pretty rare, and they have him under team control on a favorable contract for at least one more season. Plus, he’s the one guy besides Hunter who has the potential to get some stops against good wings.