We Gonna Talk About It ... New 2nd Unit

[MarylandHawk]

35 minutes ago, Q45T said:

Nope let’s talk about it… 1st and 2nd units couldn’t run the offense with Cam hunting for his own shots, Cam pouted when he didn’t get enough playing time (threw a tantrum on the bench once and JC had to calm him down), had an inflated ego and overall just wasn’t a fit on the team.

I’m glad he was professional about requesting a trade but he still brought down the overall team chemistry. Even tho we lost the first two games after trading him we immediately looked like the Hawks from last season and now we’re on four game streak. Now I’m not gonna pretend like our record was entirely his fault especially with Covid and injuries but results don’t lie.

Lastly the obsession with his potential was the weirdest thing I’ve seen since I’ve been a fan. I got cussed out on another website for being glad he was gone lmao.

What was telling about the situation is that the whole team knew he requested a trade including Nate. It must have put the team off since he was playing so many minutes and everyone knew he wanted off the team. 

[MarylandHawk]

I really wanted to see Cam with starting unit with Dre and Capella in it to see how good we could be defensively but I guess we will never know. 

[NBASupes]

12 hours ago, marco102 said:

At this point, you have to admit the chemistry on both ends look much improved.

Again, I don't think all of this is Cam's fault.  We got Dre and OO back.  

Bogi being on one leg was hurting the defense.  He doesn't need to play until he is 100%

Cam may have been part of the problem. 

The post I quoted literally blamed Cam Reddish when the whole 2nd unit struggled with or without Cam. There is a couple major things that happened of late like the return of Okongwu and Hunter but blame Cam. ***** made behavior

This thread is already ***.

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, MarylandHawk said:

What was telling about the situation is that the whole team knew he requested a trade including Nate. It must have put the team off since he was playing so many minutes and everyone knew he wanted off the team. 

It's a tough situation because there is a lot of preassure to play him to maximize his value, and on top of that we really were in certain situations where we had to play him big minutes because everyone was out with Covid.  Regardless I'm still a little confused how the team handled this whole situation and how the coaching staff was mismaniging not just Cam but the rest of the player's minutes and roles. Now with Cam out, (and Bogi injured) all of our logjams have been resolved and the roles and minutes seem to be clearly defined with the only thing that is still kind of up in the air is how we are gonna play both Cap and OO enough minutes. 

[marco102]

12 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The post I quoted literally blamed Cam Reddish when the whole 2nd unit struggled with or without Cam. There is a couple major things that happened of late like the return of Okongwu and Hunter but blame Cam. *****made behavior

This thread is already ***.

I mean your reaction to the trade is why the thread was made.  You said if you didn't see improved chemistry you would hate Travis forever. 

Just saying, it's improved. 

[Q45T]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Oh, this is going to be the blame Cam thread. I see what's going on here. Bullshit. Not cool.

I literally said in the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph that he wasn’t entirely to blame with Covid and injuries affecting our season… you picked out the one part of it that YOU disagreed with.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Q45T

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I mean your reaction to the trade is why the thread was made.  You said if you didn't see improved chemistry you would hate Travis forever. 

Just saying, it's improved. 

We didnt have improved chemistry for the first three games we played without him. More of the same. We do right now. If you are primarily blaming Reddish for that when he was productive based on 82games.

I am not buying it and I wont buy it. This would have happened if everyone just got healthy and in a flow. That could have happen with or without Cam but most importantly, it could have happened with him. Are you blaming Cam for COVID and Hunter and Okongwu injuries?

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We didnt have improved chemistry for the first three games we played without him. More of the same. We do right now. If you are primarily blaming Reddish for that when he was productive based on 82games.

I am not buying it and I wont buy it. This would have happened if everyone just got healthy and in a flow. That could have happen with or without Cam but most importantly, it could have happened with him. Are you blaming Cam for COVID and Hunter and Okongwu injuries?

It hasn't just been the past 4 games.  They were playing with more effort right after the trade. You just refused to admit it because they were down in some games fought back to take the lead and still lost. 

I'm not saying Cam was the complete problem, but the minute he was traded they started playing harder.  

I was a Cam stan and wish him the best.  However, my fandom for one player doesn't out weigh my fandom for the Atlanta Hawks.   As soon as they are traded to another team, I really don't care about their NBA careers. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by marco102

[Diesel]

From this:

 

To This 

 

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

It hasn't just been the past 4 games.  They were playing with more effort right after the trade. You just refused to admit it because they were down in some games fought back to take the lead and still lost. 

I'm not saying Cam was the complete problem, but the minute he was traded they started playing harder.  

I was a Cam stan and wish him the best.  However, my fandom for one player doesn't out weigh my fandom for the Atlanta Hawks.   As soon as they are traded to another team, I really don't care about their NBA careers. 

We lost those games the same way we were doing all year and Cam was key in the three wins we had before the trade. That's the part you forget and even if the team effort was ass against both LA teams, did Cam even play that much? He played less than 11 mins

Two things can be true. Our effort has been much better of late and it's not Cam's fault and fk yourselves if you think it is his fault. That's not literally to you, that's to anyone I see blaming this on Cam.

Edited January 24, 2022 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We didnt have improved chemistry for the first three games we played without him. More of the same. We do right now. If you are primarily blaming Reddish for that when he was productive based on 82games.

I am not buying it and I wont buy it. This would have happened if everyone just got healthy and in a flow. That could have happen with or without Cam but most importantly, it could have happened with him. Are you blaming Cam for COVID and Hunter and Okongwu injuries?

We didn't win the 1st couple of games after the trade, but the bench unit played much better together with Gallo leading the way. 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We lost those games the same way we were doing all year and Cam was key in the three wins we had before the trade. That's the part you forget and even if the team effort was ass against both LA teams, did Cam even play that much? He played less than 11 mins

Two things can be true. Our effort has been much better of late and it's not Cam's fault and fk yourselves if you think it is his fault. That's not literally to you, that's to anyone I see blaming this on Cam.

Supes.  Cam is not sacred cow worthy. 

We can admit... That we're doing better after the trade.  Nothing wrong with that.   We can admit that there are a few things that changed:

1.  No more TLC.

2.  Less COVID Players. 

3.  More Hunter and More OO

4.  No Cam.

I believe that all of those things have something to do with our winning... BUT.

You can't explain the turn around of our second team SO FAST without speculating about Cam's disruption of the 2nd team.  Whether it was purposed to get better trading materials for him.. or just the way that he plays...  Our 2nd team when Cam was here was dysfunctional.  Guaranteed to lose a lead.   Now.. They hold a lead better than our first team.  Now... they move the ball better than our first team.  Now.. they play defense on a level of our first team.  I can't say it's all Cam's fault... but the kinetics behind the changes suggest that Cam leaving had something to do with it. 

 

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We didn't win the 1st couple of games after the trade, but the bench unit played much better together with Gallo leading the way. 

You go into the game log, I believe we all noted that the second team brought us back in those games. 

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Supes.  Cam is not sacred cow worthy. 

We can admit... That we're doing better after the trade.  Nothing wrong with that.   We can admit that there are a few things that changed:

1.  No more TLC.

2.  Less COVID Players. 

3.  More Hunter and More OO

4.  No Cam.

I believe that all of those things have something to do with our winning... BUT.

You can't explain the turn around of our second team SO FAST without speculating about Cam's disruption of the 2nd team.  Whether it was purposed to get better trading materials for him.. or just the way that he plays...  Our 2nd team when Cam was here was dysfunctional.  Guaranteed to lose a lead.   Now.. They hold a lead better than our first team.  Now... they move the ball better than our first team.  Now.. they play defense on a level of our first team.  I can't say it's all Cam's fault... but the kinetics behind the changes suggest that Cam leaving had something to do with it. 

 

You go into the game log, I believe we all noted that the second team brought us back in those games. 

Blaming Cam isn't a solid target. That's where I disagree and will always disagree. The end

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Blaming Cam isn't a solid target. That's where I disagree and will always disagree. The end

I can see that you disagree...  Sacred Cow.  However, the question is can you acknowledge that our second team is markedly better than they were when Cam was here?

Let's try this supes... no blame game.. Acknowledgement game:

1.  Can you acknowledge that our second team is better both defensively and offensively since the trade?

2 Can you acknowledge that our second team became better almost instantaneously after the trade?

3.  Can you acknowledge that our second team seems to know their roles a lot better since the trade?

4.  Can you acknowledge that specific players like Wright, Lou, and Gallo has played a lot better since the trade?

 

Can you acknowledge these things?

[Sothron]

I don't think anyone is blaming Cam. I still think Cam be a star in the NBA but he needs to be a high usage player like @Diesel mentioned. Some guys can be like Vinnie Johnson and be a microwave off a bench. That's not Cam. I said for two years my dream starting lineup was Cam as the starting 2 because he has the potential for a Paul George type of player.

We will never know what could have been. Nate would never start him unless it was emergency. We are still being rick rolled by the injury gods so Cam never had a healthy rotation and players around him.

So saying all that...this team is simply playing better without him. You said it yourself supes: Cam wasn't cutting, he doesn't cut or move off the ball. He just stands there. His defense this season was frankly terrible and nowhere near as good as he had shown in the past. Way too much gambling for steals. Way too much not rotating on time.  The addition of OO and health has certainly helped the second unit but Cam not being there has helped them.

There's no way to be honest about evaluation this team before and after Cam and not seeing that. 

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I can see that you disagree...  Sacred Cow.  However, the question is can you acknowledge that our second team is markedly better than they were when Cam was here?

Let's try this supes... no blame game.. Acknowledgement game:

1.  Can you acknowledge that our second team is better both defensively and offensively since the trade?

2 Can you acknowledge that our second team became better almost instantaneously after the trade?

3.  Can you acknowledge that our second team seems to know their roles a lot better since the trade?

4.  Can you acknowledge that specific players like Wright, Lou, and Gallo has played a lot better since the trade?

 

Can you acknowledge these things?

Our team is better. 

Our health is better.

TLC is not in the lineup.

Okongwu and Hunter are back.

There is a lot of change. If you want to say the trade helped Lou and Gallo,  I would agree but that's where it ends. When Cam played without those two, he had success.

Cam is probably one of the most unlucky players we seen this year. Last year, he was a problem. This year, he's a scapegoat. When you produce and teams have to take account of you and your bench rotation doesn't fit around him. I am not going to blame him. He's productive and producing. 

I have no issues blaming Cam for his play in Soph year. But this year, he was productive. That's what he is suppose to do.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I don't think anyone is blaming Cam. I still think Cam be a star in the NBA but he needs to be a high usage player like @Diesel mentioned. Some guys can be like Vinnie Johnson and be a microwave off a bench. That's not Cam. I said for two years my dream starting lineup was Cam as the starting 2 because he has the potential for a Paul George type of player.

We will never know what could have been. Nate would never start him unless it was emergency. We are still being rick rolled by the injury gods so Cam never had a healthy rotation and players around him.

So saying all that...this team is simply playing better without him. You said it yourself supes: Cam wasn't cutting, he doesn't cut or move off the ball. He just stands there. His defense this season was frankly terrible and nowhere near as good as he had shown in the past. Way too much gambling for steals. Way too much not rotating on time.  The addition of OO and health has certainly helped the second unit but Cam not being there has helped them.

There's no way to be honest about evaluation this team before and after Cam and not seeing that. 

His defense this year has been more productive than last. 

I've even shown that with a metric I shared with Jay. Cam had some shit games defensively this year like the Orlando game but overall, he was more productive on that end than years past. 

Cam had a lot of bad luck this year. It is what it is. It occasionally happens. We see Terrance Ross going through that right now in Orlando.

[sturt]

It really is this simple.

 

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

His defense this year has been more productive than last. 

I've even shown that with a metric I shared with Jay. Cam had some shit games defensively this year like the Orlando game but overall, he was more productive on that end than years past. 

Cam had a lot of bad luck this year. It is what it is. It occasionally happens. We see Terrance Ross going through that right now in Orlando.

Cam's production this year and normal luck, he should be a 1.5-2 WAR player. The metrics think is Cam got lucky last year. He was not productive but his metrics felt he had good luck and the team was better for him than without him even if production stats said Cam needs to be out of the rotation.

Metrics and production aren't always right. It loves Whiteside but eye test hates him.

Edited January 24, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

 

1.  Can you acknowledge that our second team is better both defensively and offensively since the trade?

You said:

Our team is better. 

2 Can you acknowledge that our second team became better almost instantaneously after the trade?

You said:

There is a lot of change.

3.  Can you acknowledge that our second team seems to know their roles a lot better since the trade?

4.  Can you acknowledge that specific players like Wright, Lou, and Gallo has played a lot better since the trade?

You said:

If you want to say the trade helped Lou and Gallo,  I would agree but that's where it ends.

So the things you didn't acknowledge:

1.  You don't think that our second team knows their roles a lot better since the trade?

2.  You don't think that Wright has played better since the trade?

I want you to see that you came in very defense about the acknowledgement game.   None of these questions mentioned Cam or blamed Cam.  I just wanted to set a baseline for what we can agree about.   Looking at Wright's stats can easily prove if he has played better or not.  And the eye test can show if our second team knows their roles a lot better or not. 

And I highlighted your statement there's a lot of change because that could vaguely answer if the team became better instantaneously...  But it's so vague that it can't be assigned. 

Now, let's look back at the things you didn't acknowledge.  Can you acknowledge them or do you still think that they are not true?