Hunter is becoming Marv

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

Dre should be the Shawn Marion of this team but....he isn't 

 

Dre is nowhere near the athlete that Shawn Marion was.  Shawn was always in the top 10 in rebounds and steals.

Hopefully Dre could do this in a playoff game by year 5 or 6 of his NBA carrer, like Shawn did.

 

 

[FL_BRYANT]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

We have the 2nd best offense in the league.  Deferring to Trae isn't the issue.  There are skill sets, "motors", and physical attributes that our wings simply don't have.

Trae gets guys wide open shots either from the perimeter or going to the basket.  Wasn't it Hunter earlier this week who completely blew a 3 on 1 fast break?

At some point, just like we did with Cam, you have to start putting some of the blame on the wings themselves.  

To JayBird's point, there's nothing stopping Dre blocking someone out and crashing the defensive boards, grabbing the rebound, and racing the ball up the court himself . . . unless he can't do it.  If his fast break skill set is only as the finisher on the break, he's limited in what he can do.

It just might be time to admit that the kid is OK, but just can't be expected to dramatically improve his game.  If he's the new "Marvin", let's temper the expectations for potential, accept who he is, and see if we can upgrade the position.

Maybe if we changed our style of play we would get better results. The second best offense in the league isn't winning games. What am I missing?  I bet Hunter would be more effective in a fast paced game. 

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, FL_BRYANT said:

Maybe if we changed our style of play we would get better results. The second best offense in the league isn't winning games. What am I missing?  I bet Hunter would be more effective in a fast paced game. 

Nah...

Dre suffers from the same mental block that Marvin had.  It's called timidplayismydefaultitus.  On the mean courts of Grant Park, they called it b****a**ness.  Yesterday was proof of the syndrome.   I saw on a few occassions, Dre' took the ball strong to the hole.   Arm cocked back, trying to dunk on somebody.   That should be what he does every other play.   Instead, he's out there feet plastered to the three point line like he's Steph Curry or something. 

While his 3 pt percentage has gone up 4%, his 2pt percentage is down 11% from last year.  He's now a 47% shooter from 2.   That means that he's taking a higher degree of difficulty shots.  More shots out of his range.  He should work on his Dominique... Taking the ball to the hole strong...   And his Derozen...  Shooting in the midrange. 

[NBASupes]

10 hours ago, Bonkers said:

The Hawks should be playing like the Nash-Amare Suns

I have no idea why they don't. Well yea I do...Nate isn't Mike D'antoni.

Naw, I seen us play fast and it looks like shit. I rather us just play Trae Ball to the max. 

[AHF]

As I said earlier this year, we all just need to take that 17 game stretch at the start of last season and throw it in the garbage.  We all hoped that represented a new baseline for him but expecting him to do that over a full season is like expecting Bogi to score 22 ppg on .722% TS% because he did that for a stretch last May.  It was a hot streak for both of them and their baseline is not close to that level.

Hunter has 3 seasons in now and his numbers haven't changed much from his age 22 rookie season to his age 24 season this year.  He is a modest scorer who plays positional defense and doesn't do anything else at an average level (passing, getting his hands on the ball on defense, rebounding, etc.).  

Just thoroughly depressing given where we drafted him and what we gave up to trade for him.  Darius Garland is the one guy who doesn't look like a disappointment from that stretch of the 2019 draft (3-10):

RJ Barrett

De'Andre Hunter

Darius Garland

Jarret Culver

Coby White

Jaxson Hayes

Cam Reddish

 

Yuck.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

As I said earlier this year, we all just need to take that 17 game stretch at the start of last season and throw it in the garbage.  We all hoped that represented a new baseline for him but expecting him to do that over a full season is like expecting Bogi to score 22 ppg on .722% TS% because he did that for a stretch last May.  It was a hot streak for both of them and their baseline is not close to that level.

Hunter has 3 seasons in now and his numbers haven't changed much from his age 22 rookie season to his age 24 season this year.  He is a modest scorer who plays positional defense and doesn't do anything else at an average level (passing, getting his hands on the ball on defense, rebounding, etc.).  

Just thoroughly depressing given where we drafted him and what we gave up to trade for him.  Darius Garland is the one guy who doesn't look like a disappointment from that stretch of the 2019 draft (3-10):

RJ Barrett

De'Andre Hunter

Darius Garland

Jarret Culver

Coby White

Jaxson Hayes

Cam Reddish

 

Yuck.

Hunter is much better than we give him credit for. 

He's a 20/5/2 in the right system for his skill-set. 

His defense will always be mid around a guy like Trae but he would be seen as a good defender for 29 other NBA teams. 

I hate that he's in wing hell in Atlanta. 

Hunter is getting Tyson Chandler'd

Edited April 11, 2022 by NBASupes

[hylndr11]

So all the other teams should see this and he will have high value in free agency is what ur saying

[macdaddy]

Just now, hylndr11 said:

So all the other teams should see this and he will have high value in free agency is what ur saying

Just like Cam was stuck in wing hell and as soon as he got out went gangbusters.  

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Just like Cam was stuck in wing hell and as soon as he got out went gangbusters.  

Cam had other issues that has to be address and I've talked about it on the pod when doing his mid season 3rd year review. That said, when the opportunity finally came in New York, he looked good. Him and R.J. was starting to have a nice thing going and then he got hurt. Another issue is Randle has to go. New York needs to trade him at all cost. He gets in the way too much. He takes up too many touches and a lot of times, the offensive efficiency isn't better for it. 

[macdaddy]

Just now, NBASupes said:

Cam had other issues that has to be address and I've talked about it on the pod when doing his mid season 3rd year review. That said, when the opportunity finally came in New York, he looked good. Him and R.J. was starting to have a nice thing going and then he got hurt. Another issue is Randle has to go. New York needs to trade him at all cost. He gets in the way too much. He takes up too many touches and a lot of times, the offensive efficiency isn't better for it. 

Yeah i was half joking.  NY this season was the wrong place for Cam.  What a disaster of a franchise.  It'll be interesting to see though if the rest of the league sees the Hawks as 'wing hell' and is willing to give us value for any of ours.  We sure didn't get much for Cam.   To me Bogi and Kev are doing way better here than they probably would elsewhere.   But we've had that discussion already.  

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Hunter is much better than we give him credit for. 

He's a 20/5/2 in the right system for his skill-set. 

His defense will always be mid around a guy like Trae but he would be seen as a good defender for 29 other NBA teams. 

I hate that he's in wing hell in Atlanta. 

Hunter is getting Tyson Chandler'd

He is seen as a good defender today. He is a fine positional defender.  Don't think he is ever going to be a big disrupter leading the league in steals or anything.  He generally does an excellent job of staying in front of his man.  That is highly valuable.

He is not a 20 ppg player for any team.  Doesn't have the ballhandling or aggression to make that happen.   

Sadly, he isn't close to a 5 rpg.  I guess it is hard to be a high rebound player when Trae is grabbing all those boards away from him but I'd still expect him to be able to outperform Delon Wright, Bogi, Huerter, etc. but he doesn't.  Instead, he is at the bottom of the roster with Lou and Trae (two players he should dominate in this area instead of being their equal).  

I legit don't know what the 2 is supposed to represent.  Is that assists?  (He is 21st on the team in assist %, well below Gallo, OO and Clint for example).  He has never been a particularly effective passer and has easily been the worst of our wings in setting up others.  Is it steals?  (He ranks 17th on the team in steal %.)  Blocks?  (11th on the team in block %, narrowly edging out noted shot blocker Kev "the eraser" Huerter)  I'm guessing you think he would fall into 2 assists per game since steals and blocks seem totally unrealistic.  I guess I'd say that is fair since any wing player should be able to average 2 assists per game and he has at least been close to that in the past (regressing this season).

[thecampster]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Cam had other issues that has to be address and I've talked about it on the pod when doing his mid season 3rd year review. That said, when the opportunity finally came in New York, he looked good. Him and R.J. was starting to have a nice thing going and then he got hurt. Another issue is Randle has to go. New York needs to trade him at all cost. He gets in the way too much. He takes up too many touches and a lot of times, the offensive efficiency isn't better for it. 

You and I talked about it two years ago and he's starting to get his opportunity now. Toppin looks very good.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, thecampster said:

You and I talked about it two years ago and he's starting to get his opportunity now. Toppin looks very good.

He is but I still don't think he will ever get to the level though he could get to before he played in the NBA. I still love Obi but his size is just a killer even though he is a good player. New York looked so good with the 

McBride 

Cam

R.J.

Obi

Robinson lineup on defense. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is seen as a good defender today. He is a fine positional defender.  Don't think he is ever going to be a big disrupter leading the league in steals or anything.  He generally does an excellent job of staying in front of his man.  That is highly valuable.

He is not a 20 ppg player for any team.  Doesn't have the ballhandling or aggression to make that happen.   

Sadly, he isn't close to a 5 rpg.  I guess it is hard to be a high rebound player when Trae is grabbing all those boards away from him but I'd still expect him to be able to outperform Delon Wright, Bogi, Huerter, etc. but he doesn't.  Instead, he is at the bottom of the roster with Lou and Trae (two players he should dominate in this area instead of being their equal).  

I legit don't know what the 2 is supposed to represent.  Is that assists?  (He is 21st on the team in assist %, well below Gallo, OO and Clint for example).  He has never been a particularly effective passer and has easily been the worst of our wings in setting up others.  Is it steals?  (He ranks 17th on the team in steal %.)  Blocks?  (11th on the team in block %, narrowly edging out noted shot blocker Kev "the eraser" Huerter)  I'm guessing you think he would fall into 2 assists per game since steals and blocks seem totally unrealistic.  I guess I'd say that is fair since any wing player should be able to average 2 assists per game and he has at least been close to that in the past (regressing this season).

He's giving you 13.4 ppg off of 32.5 touches per game. That's .412 points per touch which is 1st for all Hawks by a significant margin. 

Man, can he can score on C&S, from 3 levels, he can put the ball on the deck and drive. He is a capable NBA scorer. Put him on a team like Utah where Royce O'Neale is getting 60 touches per game. He would easily average 20ppg. Easily. 

He's getting so screwed in Atlanta with this heliocentric offense that highly favors bigs. 

He averaged 4.8 rpg as a rookie and 4.5 as a soph. So you saying that his best rebounding days are behind him?

He don't get that many touches in Atlanta. How he gonna get assists when he don't get touches?

I remember arguing with Bulls supporters who swore Tyson Chandler was the worst offensive big in the league and he's just a bottom tier center. Nazr in Atlanta is better and I argued with them that he's a good screen setter and that he has a nice pop off the screen. He would be much better in a PnR heavy offense. What happened? He went to New Orleans and proved me right. 

[thecampster]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is seen as a good defender today. He is a fine positional defender.  Don't think he is ever going to be a big disrupter leading the league in steals or anything.  He generally does an excellent job of staying in front of his man.  That is highly valuable.

He is not a 20 ppg player for any team.  Doesn't have the ballhandling or aggression to make that happen.   

Sadly, he isn't close to a 5 rpg.  I guess it is hard to be a high rebound player when Trae is grabbing all those boards away from him but I'd still expect him to be able to outperform Delon Wright, Bogi, Huerter, etc. but he doesn't.  Instead, he is at the bottom of the roster with Lou and Trae (two players he should dominate in this area instead of being their equal).  

I legit don't know what the 2 is supposed to represent.  Is that assists?  (He is 21st on the team in assist %, well below Gallo, OO and Clint for example).  He has never been a particularly effective passer and has easily been the worst of our wings in setting up others.  Is it steals?  (He ranks 17th on the team in steal %.)  Blocks?  (11th on the team in block %, narrowly edging out noted shot blocker Kev "the eraser" Huerter)  I'm guessing you think he would fall into 2 assists per game since steals and blocks seem totally unrealistic.  I guess I'd say that is fair since any wing player should be able to average 2 assists per game and he has at least been close to that in the past (regressing this season).

I feel I've been fair in my criticism of Dre....the rebounding thing is because he's typically guarding the other team's primary scorer and this keeps him from getting into rebounding position more times than not. I feel he could do a better job but compare him to Luka who is never, ever asked to guard the other team's number one option and can cheat on rebounds. Luka is just too slow to guard a stop sign.

A good "stats" comparison for rebounds with Dre would be Marcus Smart (I know different positions) but on defense they have very similar tasks.  Smart averages 3.8 rpg.

Next game just watch Hunter on defense, compare him with say Bogi.  Unless switched, Bogi is never guarding the primary scorer and is constantly sagging to the lane...same with Trae....sometimes with Huerter.  If  Hunter has a valid criticism, its he lacks that dog commitment. Rebounding is positioning and want to. You have to want a rebound to get a contested rebound.  Dre gives up far too early (IMHO).

 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's giving you 13.4 ppg off of 32.5 touches per game. That's .412 points per touch which is 1st for all Hawks by a significant margin. 

Man, can he can score on C&S, from 3 levels, he can put the ball on the deck and drive. He is a capable NBA scorer. Put him on a team like Utah where Royce O'Neale is getting 60 touches per game. He would easily average 20ppg. Easily. 

He's getting so screwed in Atlanta with this heliocentric offense that highly favors bigs. 

He averaged 4.8 rpg as a rookie and 4.5 as a soph. So you saying that his best rebounding days are behind him?

He don't get that many touches in Atlanta. How he gonna get assists when he don't get touches?

I remember arguing with Bulls supporters who swore Tyson Chandler was the worst offensive big in the league and he's just a bottom tier center. Nazr in Atlanta is better and I argued with them that he's a good screen setter and that he has a nice pop off the screen. He would be much better in a PnR heavy offense. What happened? He went to New Orleans and proved me right. 

Chandler averaged 10.2 ppg in NO.

We've already been through the per touch numbers and why they are silly to think they would scale in a linear fashion.  (When you rarely pass the ball and shoot it most of the time you touch it you tend to score more per touch than guys who pass the ball and it distorts the numbers.  He isn't a better scorer than Kevin Durant and Giannis which is what that number would suggest if it truly reflected scoring ability.  Same goes for Cam.)

On rebounding, 5 rebounds per game would be a pathetic total for someone with his physical tools but I'm not going to say that it is impossible.  I am saying he has rebounded like Lou and Trae this season which is inexcusable.  

If Hunter ends up on another roster, I fully expect a bet with you on whether he averages 20 ppg for his new team that season because I'm 100% positive that won't happen unless he shows something very new and different from the player he is today.  (Not ruling that out but no longer expect it given how thoroughly mediocre he has been this season.)

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

I feel I've been fair in my criticism of Dre....the rebounding thing is because he's typically guarding the other team's primary scorer and this keeps him from getting into rebounding position more times than not. I feel he could do a better job but compare him to Luka who is never, ever asked to guard the other team's number one option and can cheat on rebounds. Luka is just too slow to guard a stop sign.

A good "stats" comparison for rebounds with Dre would be Marcus Smart (I know different positions) but on defense they have very similar tasks.  Smart averages 3.8 rpg.

Next game just watch Hunter on defense, compare him with say Bogi.  Unless switched, Bogi is never guarding the primary scorer and is constantly sagging to the lane...same with Trae....sometimes with Huerter.  If  Hunter has a valid criticism, its he lacks that dog commitment. Rebounding is positioning and want to. You have to want a rebound to get a contested rebound.  Dre gives up far too early (IMHO).

 

He was a much more capable rebounder when he was starting next to Cam. Playing next to Kevin and Trae. Someone has to be fully committed to the offensive player as a defender as those two won't, especially Trae. 

[thecampster]

Just now, AHF said:

Chandler averaged 10.2 ppg in NO.

We've already been through the per touch numbers and why they are silly to think they would scale in a linear fashion.  (When you rarely pass the ball and shoot it most of the time you touch it you tend to score more per touch than guys who pass the ball and it distorts the numbers.  He isn't a better scorer than Kevin Durant and Giannis which is what that number would suggest if it truly reflected scoring ability.  Same goes for Cam.)

On rebounding, 5 rebounds per game would be a pathetic total for someone with his physical tools but I'm not going to say that it is impossible.  I am saying he has rebounded like Lou and Trae this season which is inexcusable.  

If Hunter ends up on another roster, I fully expect a bet with you on whether he averages 20 ppg for his new team that season because I'm 100% positive that won't happen unless he shows something very new and different from the player he is today.  (Not ruling that out but no longer expect it given how thoroughly mediocre he has been this season.)

He's deciding what to do after the catch. You have to move without the ball and cut. Until he's driving to the basket off cuts and not starting flat footed, you're 100% right here.

 

[NBASupes]

Just now, AHF said:

Chandler averaged 10.2 ppg in NO.

We've already been through the per touch numbers and why they are silly to think they would scale in a linear fashion.  (When you rarely pass the ball and shoot it most of the time you touch it you tend to score more per touch than guys who pass the ball and it distorts the numbers.  He isn't a better scorer than Kevin Durant and Giannis which is what that number would suggest if it truly reflected scoring ability.  Same goes for Cam.)

On rebounding, 5 rebounds per game would be a pathetic total for someone with his physical tools but I'm not going to say that it is impossible.  I am saying he has rebounded like Lou and Trae this season which is inexcusable.  

If Hunter ends up on another roster, I fully expect a bet with you on whether he averages 20 ppg for his new team that season because I'm 100% positive that won't happen unless he shows something very new and different from the player he is today.  (Not ruling that out but no longer expect it given how thoroughly mediocre he has been this season.)

Which is substantially more than he averaged in Chicago for his offensive limitations. 

His metrics would even out on both sides if he was given consistent touches which he isn't. 

I already covered that he's not around that ball like that for rebounds. When he is, he does need to do a better job of securing the rebound and not letting it bounce off his hands. 

Let's see where he goes and whose the coach. The system, personnel, and coach matters. If he goes to the right situation like a Utah Jazz and Snyder is still there, we have a deal. 

If you watch as much Basketball as I do, you would realize 20ppg is not as much an accomplishment as given. You got Miles and R.J. scoring 20ppg. It's all about touches. 

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, thecampster said:

A good "stats" comparison for rebounds with Dre would be Marcus Smart (I know different positions) but on defense they have very similar tasks.  Smart averages 3.8 rpg.

Next game just watch Hunter on defense, compare him with say Bogi.  Unless switched, Bogi is never guarding the primary scorer and is constantly sagging to the lane...same with Trae....sometimes with Huerter.  If  Hunter has a valid criticism, its he lacks that dog commitment. Rebounding is positioning and want to. You have to want a rebound to get a contested rebound.  Dre gives up far too early (IMHO).

 

He and Smart are similar rebounders, although I'd argue that Hunter spends a lot more time closer to the basket guarding players who aren't outside the 3pt arc.  Of course, Smart has the better rebounding % this year to no one's surprise.  I do agree that Hunter's defensive responsibilities negatively impact his defensive rebounding but even factoring that in he still disappoints.  And those defensive responsibilities doesn't impact his offensive rebounding where he is 19th on the team in per minute offensive rebounding and 18th in rebounding %.  If Hunter had a relentless appetite for grabbing rebounds, he would do it.  He just doesn't have that "dog" in him.