Hunter is becoming Marv

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Which is substantially more than he averaged in Chicago for his offensive limitations. 

His metrics would even out on both sides if he was given consistent touches which he isn't. 

I already covered that he's not around that ball like that for rebounds. When he is, he does need to do a better job of securing the rebound and not letting it bounce off his hands. 

Let's see where he goes and whose the coach. The system, personnel, and coach matters. If he goes to the right situation like a Utah Jazz and Snyder is still there, we have a deal. 

If you watch as much Basketball as I do, you would realize 20ppg is not as much an accomplishment as given. You got Miles and R.J. scoring 20ppg. It's all about touches. 

Tyson's numbers increased but not that much.  His last 3 healthy seasons in Chicago he averaged:

9.2 ppg

8.0 ppg

5.3 ppg

 

In NO he averaged:

9.5 ppg

11.8 ppg

8.8 ppg

 

Only one season among those is significantly different, the 5.3 vs 11.8.  Otherwise, 9.2 vs 9.5 and 8.8 vs 8.0.

After that he averaged 6.5 ppg in Charlotte and around 10 per game in Dallas.

 

Given that his Chicago seasons were his age 20, 22 and 23 seasons, it hardly is a revelation that he would be averaging a few more ppg a few years later in his prime.

 

I agree RJ is only averaging 20 ppg due to the freedom he is given on offense.  That won't be there for Hunter unless a team is deliberately tanking.  RJ is not a particularly good scorer and should not get that many shots.

[SalvorMallow]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Which is substantially more than he averaged in Chicago for his offensive limitations. 

His metrics would even out on both sides if he was given consistent touches which he isn't. 

I already covered that he's not around that ball like that for rebounds. When he is, he does need to do a better job of securing the rebound and not letting it bounce off his hands. 

Let's see where he goes and whose the coach. The system, personnel, and coach matters. If he goes to the right situation like a Utah Jazz and Snyder is still there, we have a deal. 

If you watch as much Basketball as I do, you would realize 20ppg is not as much an accomplishment as given. You got Miles and R.J. scoring 20ppg. It's all about touches. 

My guess is no one wants to pass him the ball because he's a black hole. You know as soon as Dre gets it, he is putting something up whether he can get to his spot or not. 

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

Tyson's numbers increased but not that much.  His last 3 healthy seasons in Chicago he averaged:

9.2 ppg

8.0 ppg

5.3 ppg

 

In NO he averaged:

9.5 ppg

11.8 ppg

8.8 ppg

 

Only one season among those is significantly different, the 5.3 vs 11.8.  Otherwise, 9.2 vs 9.5 and 8.8 vs 8.0.

After that he averaged 6.5 ppg in Charlotte and around 10 per game in Dallas.

 

Given that his Chicago seasons were his age 20, 22 and 23 seasons, it hardly is a revelation that he would be averaging a few more ppg a few years later in his prime.

 

I agree RJ is only averaging 20 ppg due to the freedom he is given on offense.  That won't be there for Hunter unless a team is deliberately tanking.  RJ is not a particularly good scorer and should not get that many shots.

That's a substantial amount when you think about who we are talking about. Tyson Chandler is extremely limited offensively. Nearly 4 and 3.3 per game more is substantial 

R.J. gets less touches than Miles. Randle dominates the rock on average. Unless Randle is not playing, R.J. touches can wane.

Give Hunter the touches, he will produce. 

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

My guess is no one wants to pass him the ball because he's a black hole. You know as soon as Dre gets it, he is putting something up whether he can get to his spot or not. 

We covered that on the points per touch thread previously.  Probably worth repeating:

 

On 3/14/2022 at 1:49 PM, AHF said:

Points per touch really isn't the best measure of offensive efficiency since it means that anyone who passes the ball gets punished by that statistic and anyone who is a black hole and shoots when they touch the ball gets rewarded.  DeAndre Hunter's assist % is 6.1% which is by far the lowest of any regular on the team.  (Clint Capela 7.1%, Huerter 13.1%, Bogi 15.6% just as a few comparables) which should be a bit of a red flag in looking at points per touch since he is shooting at such a high rate whenever he touches the ball.

His TS% is a much better measure of his offensive efficiency.  In that respect, he is comparable to the other wings and not anything special.  (Hunter .556% TS%, Bogi .558% TS%, Huerter .571% TS%).  

Using the nba.com passing stats shows the contrast between OO and Hunter.  Hunter receives almost twice as many passes as OO but passes less than him despite getting the ball so much more often.  (Predictably, he is way behind Bogi and Huerter.)

This isn't to say that Hunter is a selfish jerk or anything.  I think he can improve as a passer but that is really not the point.  The point is that you should not look at points per touch without also factoring in how often people are shooting when they touch the ball and how often they are passing.  This "black hole" type of impact on that stat is why Cam is even higher than Hunter by the points per touch metric.  He had an even higher ratio of passes received to passes made than Hunter.
 

For reference, here are the ratios for our wings:

Cam:  1.49 passes received to passes made 

Hunter:  1.26 passes received to passes made 

Bogi: 1.08 passes received to passes made

Huerter: 1.05 passes received to passes made

 

If you look at the ratio of their shots per game to passes received per game, you see the same ordering:

Cam:  .486 shots per game to passes received per game

Hunter:  .475 shots per game to passes received per game

Bogi:  .404 shots per game to passes received per game

Huerter:  .352 shots per game to passes received per game

(Note just for the fun of it that Trae is .284 shots per game to passes received per game which should be expected since he is much more often doing something other than shooting when he touches the ball even though he is our lead scorer)

 

For reference:

Kevin Durant:  1.31 passes received to passes made; .370 shots per game to passes received per game

So Cam and Hunter shoot more often when they receive a pass than Kevin Durant.  This high shoot rate is predictably why they average more points per touch than Durant despite him being vastly more efficient and effective as a scorer.

It all just reinforces who is shooting the most often when they do touch the ball and that of course logically tracks to who scores the most per touch and why points per touch is a bad stat to use as a proxy for scoring ability.

None of this means that they shouldn't get more touches but it does mean if they move to a team where they will get the ball more than it is extremely unlikely they can sustain their high shot rates on their next team and so you should see that points per touch number drop off dramatically unless they maintain a very limited "gunner off the bench" type of role as Cam did during his limited run with the Knicks.  I'd view being able to maintain that high a point per touch ratio as a bad sign in terms of their limited role.

 

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

My guess is no one wants to pass him the ball because he's a black hole. You know as soon as Dre gets it, he is putting something up whether he can get to his spot or not. 

None of our wings get touches like that who play a majority of mins with Trae. Bogi touches went up massively when he moved to the bench and played a lot of mins with Delon. As you can imagine, his scoring went up significantly. 

[thecampster]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

We covered that on the points per touch thread previously.  Probably worth repeating:

 

 

I think lost in that thread about Huerter is how bad he started off the season and to still have a better TS% than Bogi. Kevin really finished strong from an efficiency stand point.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

None of our wings get touches like that who play a majority of mins with Trae. Bogi touches went up massively when he moved to the bench and played a lot of mins with Delon. As you can imagine, his scoring went up significantly. 

Trae is the highest volume and most efficient scorer on the team.  Of course anyone is going to get more touches if they move from being the secondary or tertiary option on offense to the primary option.  JC shoots more when Trae is hurt for example.  Bogi did very well with Trae last year once he got healthy fwiw.  Offense is still much better with Trae on the floor.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Trae is the highest volume and most efficient scorer on the team.  Of course anyone is going to get more touches if they move from being the secondary or tertiary option on offense to the primary option.  JC shoots more when Trae is hurt for example.  Bogi did very well with Trae last year once he got healthy fwiw.  Offense is still much better with Trae on the floor.

Bogi was lights out. Every time he touched it, the ball was shot and he generally made the shot. He was playing at an all star caliber level. That's not reliable for him to be Klay Thompson but with no movement, just off spot ups and C&S.

Some offenses are perimeter oriented, some our interior oriented like Philly and Denver. We run heliocentric PG oriented system that runs through our bigs. 

When we go from that, our offensive efficiency drops like a rock, when we stick to it. We have one of the best offenses in NBA history. 

[SalvorMallow]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

None of our wings get touches like that who play a majority of mins with Trae. Bogi touches went up massively when he moved to the bench and played a lot of mins with Delon. As you can imagine, his scoring went up significantly. 

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Literally any team Hunter goes to, he:

1) can't and won't be a first option, so his touches will be somewhat limited by scheme

2) better start passing the ball or he will be iced out of the offense

Reading @AHFS post, Hunter has a lower assist rate than Clint Capella! That's really sad. Players get more touches when the ball is moving and Hunter is a flat out ball stopper at this point in his career. 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Literally any team Hunter goes to, he:

1) can't and won't be a first option, so his touches will be somewhat limited by scheme

2) better start passing the ball or he will be iced out of the offense

Reading @AHFS post, Hunter has a lower assist rate than Clint Capella! That's really sad. Players get more touches when the ball is moving and Hunter is a flat out ball stopper at this point in his career. 

1. No one wants or expects him to be primary offensive option but Miles and R.J. aren't they get 60 touches a game. O'Neale isn't even a tertiary option and he gets 60 touches a game. 32 touches a game for a starter is criminal. You would think he's the time lord, only good for lobs with those limited touches. 

2. None of our wings get touches like that. Bogi touches just shot up after moving to the bench.

3. Capela gets more touches and a lot more quality touches and most bigs get a lot more quality touches than wings, that's normal. But Hunter barely gets quality touches. He does try to take advantage of it when he does. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by NBASupes

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I think lost in that thread about Huerter is how bad he started off the season and to still have a better TS% than Bogi. Kevin really finished strong from an efficiency stand point.

I guess I don't see a huge gap for him in that area for this season.  Pre AS break, .571% TS%.  Post AS break, .567% TS%.  Month to month, pretty consistent after the brutal 6 game SSS month of October.

Pretty big gaps between Huerter and Bogi for sure:

Huerter .570% TS%

Bogi .562% TS%

Hunter .547% TS%

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. No one wants or expects him to be primary offensive option but Miles and R.J. aren't they get 60 touches a game. O'Neale isn't even a tertiary option and he gets 60 touches a game. 32 touches a game for a starter is criminal. You would think he's the time lord, only good for lobs with those limited touches. 

RJ shoots more than anyone on the Knicks including Randle on a per minute and per touch basis.  Overall, RJ and Randle are co-leads in terms of shooting with a very equal balance: 17.3 FGA/gm for Randle and 17.1 FGA/gm for RJ / 17.8 FGA/36 for RJ and 17.6 FGA/36 for Randle.  Both suck as far as efficiency which is why the Knicks suck this season.  (.511% TS% for RJ and .509% TS% for Randle).

RJ has a green light to shoot.  He just isn't expected to also facilitate like the Knicks are looking for from Randle.  Randle is basically the team's point guard and the co-lead with RJ as a scorer.

[NBASupes]

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

RJ shoots more than anyone on the Knicks including Randle on a per minute and per touch basis.  Overall, RJ and Randle are co-leads in terms of shooting with a very equal balance: 17.3 FGA/gm for Randle and 17.1 FGA/gm for RJ / 17.8 FGA/36 for RJ and 17.6 FGA/36 for Randle.  Both suck as far as efficiency which is why the Knicks suck this season.  (.511% TS% for RJ and .509% TS% for Randle).

RJ has a green light to shoot.  He just isn't expected to also facilitate like the Knicks are looking for from Randle.  Randle is basically the team's point guard and the co-lead with RJ as a scorer.

He gets a lot of touches is my entire point.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

He gets a lot of touches is my entire point.

Which is not a good thing for the Knicks.  He needs to get a lot more efficient to justify his touches and shots.

[NBASupes]

46 minutes ago, AHF said:

Which is not a good thing for the Knicks.  He needs to get a lot more efficient to justify his touches and shots.

I agree. 

[Final_quest]

I really do and did want to like Hunter.  To me RJ is not a fair comparison.  Barrett is way more skilled and can be a primary scorer, although he's inefficient.  Hunter doesn't have the handles, can't get separation, doesn't shoot as well.  I agree that he would benefit from more touches, but it would come at a cost.  

The disappointing part of where Hunter is right now is his defense.  He's better than some of our other wings, but I wouldn't call him a stopper.  Very little activity leading to turnovers.  Deficient rebounding.  The Miami game he lead us in plus minus, but his numbers for the year in that stat is well below average.  

I am pulling for him.  His results so far have caused my expectations to be lowered.  

[Spud2nique]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:15 AM, Spud2nique said:

I usually don’t make directly comparison individual threads but this dude needs to step up.

Hunter has the body, needs more heart.

Drop the nice guy BS and ball bro.

STFU SPUD!!! 

-Dre

 

  

 

.  

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

STFU SPUD!!! 

-Dre

 

  

 

.  

If we get this Hunter in the playoffs every game....oh boy!

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If we get this Hunter in the playoffs every game....oh boy!

Aggressive… assertive..spectacular!  

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If we get this Hunter in the playoffs every game....oh boy!

Yea, but, let's hold off on that expectation until we see him at least string a couple of games like this together.