The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[kg01]

Ya know ... I missed a pretty big 'something' in all the potential Gobert (rhymes with yogurt) talk.  This is just another Dan E. strAinge production.  A lot of sound and fury, about trades, only to signify nothing in the end.

As ma$e said, expect to hear a lotta 'almost' and 'couda' talk about what UTA could've gotten but 'ohh it fell apart right at the end'.

Can we turn our attention to other pathways to getting better and leave strAinge to his own weird devices?

[JayBirdHawk]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Grant seems doubly tough given that Detroit reportedly wants a premium price for him in a trade and Grant wants all the touches on offense (despite not being a good high volume scorer) and a huge contract after his current contract is done despite not being a true star.  Grant the starter / glue guy on a reasonable contract seems like a good addition but that isn't the guy I'm seeing on the market.

Article suggests Bogi and #16 for Grant, with the Hawks preferring Gallo and #16.

Considering Luxury Tax concerns, Suggests Hawks shoul be 'ok resigning at $20 mil per. Grant is seeking $28 mil per which would be a nonstarter for the Hawks (I paraphrased)

[Wretch]

25 minutes ago, sturt said:

@kg01... this is much too high fallutin terminology to be comin from merely @Spud2nique's alter ego.

There would have to be some legitimate schizophrenia going on here.

Getting back to why we're actually here... yeah, I hear that, though my instant reaction is that Big2O is among the most developmentally stunted players in his rookie class simply because he came out of the gate so late due to his foot, and then virtually the same thing happened in his sophomore season due to his shoulder (it was his shoulder, right?). He's not had a training camp yet.

And stir into that mix he was one of the youngest (or the youngest?) coming out in 2020.

And stir into that mix... broken record alert... the Great Recession, which didn't affect him so much as it affected the stability of the rest of the team, with ripple effects such that the 2021-22 team never really found a consistent rhythm. It was the definition of a wasted season b/c the entire roster of Real Hawks was actually at McM's disposal for... what... 5 games total? Something like that.

People like to go the cynical route and claim, "Aw, that's just an excuse." Call it an excuse or call it a reason, I call it a condition. There were conditions that had impact, undeniably, on the team's and on individuals' development.

 

THIS is Big2Os first chance to go to training camp and play a full season, and with the benefit of knowing something about what he's doing and what's expected/needed from him.

I'm bullish. I think he gets the opportunity to be relied upon for jumpers out to 18 feet, and his form has always suggested he's got what it takes for that much. At least as importantly, though, this will be the season when he has to begin to show the defensive flashes we've seen are more than just flashes, but rather he consistently from game to game from opposing player to opposing player is a defensive monster.
 

Aside: Big2O was the second most affected. Most affected was Jalen. If you go back and look, you'll find that not only did Jalen only play 13 games of college ball total, he only played 9 (!) games as a senior in high school. That's 22 games in two years. And so, there could be no doubt when Schlenk drafted him, there was a full understanding the most you could hope for is some contribution late in the season--but even that was dashed, then, when Jalen had his own health issues mid-year, staggering his development.

 

Yes.  All of this Sturt.  It's my holdout and I can only wholeheartedly agree with the reasoning.  I hope that you (and Spud) are correct, that Travis and the scouting team saw something else in the workouts, and we've only scratched the surface of him...(and I did watch the video of him hitting jumpers in practice, so that's promising).

But more important than all that...

Is that the first time that I've read the nickname Big2O?!?!?!?!?  OHHHHH MAN...?!?!? LOL Indeed.  Yes indeed... Very much yes. lol If it hasn't already, I will do my part to make that stick.

24 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I think it’s a height and size thing that won’t allow you to get past this. Let me ask you this, what if we had picked a guy like Wiseman, who had the stature as far as size and measurements but didn’t know how to play pro basketball? How would we feel then? 
 

Just trying to break the stereotype for big men having to have certain measurements. 
 

Plus, you could say that you could find a journeyman late in the draft on a guard prospect as well. Manu was picked in the 2nd round but could have been the 6th pick in his draft as well.

Give him this upcoming year. You will be elated I guarantee it. If you aren’t l, I’ll officially change my name to Squd.  

Nah dude.  Size isn't my deal.  I just like guys who play hard.  I don't have the time, or immediate memory recollection to put it in a post, but while I wasn't high on Wiseman, I did see a different skillset in him.  I'll revisit in a bit.

[Spud2nique]

9 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Size isn't my deal.

[Spud2nique]

I agree Trae. Although I still hate the crap outta the Golden State Warriors and their dumba$$ fans  

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CePH-d4pV5E/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Wretch]

So @Spud2nique I don't have time to revisit Wiseman right now, but to illustrate my point about good players that are available without burning a high lottery pick.  This is just frontcourt players and literally just throwing names off the top of my head while I google them...

• Grant Long - Round 2, Pick 33
• Montrezl Harrell - Round 2, Pick 32
• Jae Crowder - Round 2, Pick 34
• Paul Millsap - Round 2, Pick 47
• Rudy Gobert - Round 1, Pick 27
• Damontas Sabonis - Round 1, Pick 11
• Pascal Siakam - Round 1, Pick 27
• Jermaine O'Neal - Round 1, Pick 17
• John Collins - Round 1, Pick 19
• Ben Wallace - Undrafted
• Dennis Rodman - Round 2, Pick 27
• Bam Adebayo - Round 1, Pick 14
• Alan Henderson - Round 1, Pick 16
• Clint Capela - Round 1, Pick 25
• Anthony Mason - Round 3, Pick 53
• Giannis Antetokounmpo - Round 1, Pick 15
• Nikola Vucevic - Round 1, Pick 16
• Steven Adams - Round 1, Pick 12
• Deandre Jordan - Round 2, Pick 35

That's JUST frontcourt guys off the top of my head.  Yes, there are some late-ish lottery picks in there and yes, I'm using my wretched subjective scale, but to me 10~14 is more or less mid 1st round quality.  This is 5 minutes worth of thought and Google for reference.  If I had the time I could find more frontcourt guys...  I'm not saying it's a walk in the park, but with good scouting these guys are readily available year after year in the draft. 

It also says nothing of former lottery picks like Al Horford, Blake Griffin, and LaMarcus Aldridge that you can get for pennies on the dollar later in their careers.  I'm not saying that OO's ceiling is super limited or that he's not going to be any better than any of these guys.  I'm only saying that if you need a serviceable starter or bench player, my guy....you can find that all day long in the draft, on the trade market, and in free agency.  I'm not saying we wasted a pick on OO.  I'm saying if his ceiling is "a serviceable big man with good/great intangibles" then we absolutely did not have to burn a *high* lottery pick on him.

[Spud2nique]

6 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I'm saying if his ceiling is "a serviceable big man with good/great intangibles"

I guess that’s where we differ. I feel like he has no ceiling. 
 

And again, you can find guards late in the draft as well. Look at Fred Van Vleet… Undrafted all star ️.

Also, Vassell and Haliburton are the only other guys in that range that would be considered? Killian Hayes? Do you see them as a good pick at 6? Saddiq Bey is a guy I liked but not at 6, that was if we traded into the early teens. (This is true you can even look back to my threads in the draft section of 2020, @kg01 I kept my receipts on Bey).

Edited May 31, 2022 by Spud2nique

[Wretch]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

I guess that’s where we differ. I feel like he has no ceiling. 
 

And again, you can find guards late in the draft as well. Look at Fred Van Vleet… Undrafted all star ️.

 

Absolutely.  I'm only limiting it to frontcourt players for OO reference.  There's great gets out there all over the place.  It's the franchise changing players that are rarely spotted outside of lottery and most found in the HIGH lottery.  Those are your targets for that pick.  If we're drafting in the 5-10 range, there's a list of guys that I would be really hoping to fish out.  If I didn't think there was anybody at that spot who could be that guy, I would deal the pick or the player that I drafted with that pick to get him.  Using the "potential" tag as bait.

I don't have time to list it out, but if you or someone else doesn't beat me to it later...then just take a cursory look at some of the high profile names drafted outside of the top 3.  Say #5 and down to about #10...that's what you aim for in the lottery and there are A LOT of big names (that I don't have time to Google right now).

[Wretch]

Also, I wouldn't say I differ on your opinion of OO...I just don't share the super-optimism watching him play thus far (limited size sample aside).  I'm waiting to see what he can do given the opportunity...but *so far*, I'm only seeing a starter, not a star.  Closer to Charles Oakley than Charles Barkley (figuratively speaking, not actual comps lol)

[Wretch]

22 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I guess that’s where we differ. I feel like he has no ceiling. 
 

And again, you can find guards late in the draft as well. Look at Fred Van Vleet… Undrafted all star ️.

Also, Vassell and Haliburton are the only other guys in that range that would be considered? Killian Hayes? Do you see them as a good pick at 6? Saddiq Bey is a guy I liked but not at 6, that was if we traded into the early teens. (This is true you can even look back to my threads in the draft section of 2020, @kg01 I kept my receipts on Bey).

My personal picks were Melo, Hayes, Avdija, and a Little Vassell...and A LOT of Nesmith.  Especially where we'd have been picking Nesmith (not at 6).  Admittedly, my Hayes-love was picturing him developing alongside Trae and  picking up backup playmaking from him.

If I'm being honest, I don't know if it was on the table, but I'm disappointed we didn't trade up with the #6 for Melo.  I was concerned whether or not he would truly work with Trae with his movement and off the ball criticisms, but that's a ship I would have just went down with.  I would have liked to see us make that move or select Hayes.

[Wretch]

Or just straight up package that pick and some players to wrangle a vet star.

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

You gotta give him some time.  (This summer face up coming)
 

 

Well the problem with that is that if you bring in a max Center, you're not giving him some time.   You're saying he's the backup.  With Clint, it's a contract that allows you to move Clint or to allow Clint to go to the bench as he gets older.   However, you can't say the same with Ayton.  With Ayton, OO becomes Whitesides or McGee.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, ShooterSays said:

With all the Randle and Grant rumors, maybe there is some truth to what Supes has been saying of OO being the every-day starter at 4, with Randle and Grant being brought in as expensive insurance policies.

In this case, I think we'd be losing JC in a Lavine trade as I don't see him being needed in a Gobert / Ayton swap.

What???  You guys are drinking the koolaid.

IF we bring in Randle or Grant after a JC trade, they will be the starter....

OO wouldn't even be the PF BU, I think JJ is more suitable. 

[Spud2nique]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

With Ayton, OO becomes Whitesides or McGee.

Ya, and may I remind you that a big man combo of Ayton and McGee to the Suns to the finals, Ayton and OO could do way more damage than that. I still think the way our roster is built with Trae we need to get a couple bangers and Ayton and OO could easily coexist ona roster together. Just my 2 cents.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya, and may I remind you that a big man combo of Ayton and McGee to the Suns to the finals, Ayton and OO could do way more damage than that. I still think the way our roster is built with Trae we need to get a couple bangers and Ayton and OO could easily coexist ona roster together. Just my 2 cents.

That's one way to look at it, another is that that is such a waste of a lottery pick.  Don't think that the #6 pick overall is going to stay happy being a BU.   He has contract wants and wishes too....  You're basically putting him in a position to fail if you make him the back up for a max contract guy.   It would be easier to use him in a trade to get a very good wing and then pick up somebody like Whitesides  or McGee with the MLE. 

 

[Spud2nique]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's one way to look at it, another is that that is such a waste of a lottery pick.  Don't think that the #6 pick overall is going to stay happy being a BU.   He has contract wants and wishes too....  You're basically putting him in a position to fail if you make him the back up for a max contract guy.   It would be easier to use him in a trade to get a very good wing and then pick up somebody like Whitesides  or McGee with the MLE. 

 

So @Wretch and @Diesel are after me! 
 

 

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

So @Wretch and @Diesel are after me! 
 

 

More like this:

[terrell]

7 hours ago, Wretch said:

Now that I'm all caught up from Friday (whew!)

Nothing shakes me to my core harder than this.  I can only hope that @thecampster's comments about posturing & disinfo tactics because...... LORDT.........  Ya'll educate me please.  Is size just not a thing?  Size AND defense...but really, is size just not a thing?  Am I just biased against small-ball...?  I thought this was just something teams did in short bursts to generate quick offense.  I can't believe that Travis would consider pairing Trae with Beal.  It just seems so....bad to me.

Oh boy....lol There has been some memorable banter this offseason, but this one will hold a special place in my heart for many moons to come. ROMFFLMMFAO!!!!!!!

I'll say a couple of things about OO, starting with the point you bring up here...  Aside from how people feel about OO's ceiling or floor, ultimately this is a question that has to be answered.  It also brings up more rotational questions with the other frontcourt guys we have.  To me it seems that our Ayton/Gobert talk is almost mutually exclusive to our reported value of OO's ceiling.

As for OO himself, I haven't changed my opinion on him.  Primarily, if we've drafted a backup big with the #6 pick, I would call that a "less than inspiring get" if I'm being gentle...if not, then call that a miss.  You don't aim for "solid backups" with picks that high.  Worst case, you deal that player or pick and/or pawn it off as potential to get more tangible value while you can.

I do like his hustle and his potential as a defensive anchor.  Offensively, I love his knack for moving in the lane and finishing (and as a rim-runner).  I'm just not seeing a face-up/post-up/stretch-big potential that would get me excited.  TBH, what I'm seeing from him wouldn't move me even if he was an early-mid teens pick.  Seriously.  All things being equal, put them in the same draft and give me a trade down for John Collins at 19th vs. Okongwu at say...13th.  All day long.

Again, I don't hate Okongwu...  Just my standards for lottery picks are high.  Certainly for the #6, he's gotta do more than rebound, block shots, and catch lobs.  Sorry @Spud2nique lol I know you're keeping notes.

Trae and Beal would be a disaster. You got that right.. Hopefully this is BS, or Travis is worse than I think..

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Wretch said:

So @Spud2nique I don't have time to revisit Wiseman right now, but to illustrate my point about good players that are available without burning a high lottery pick.  This is just frontcourt players and literally just throwing names off the top of my head while I google them...

• Grant Long - Round 2, Pick 33
• Montrezl Harrell - Round 2, Pick 32
• Jae Crowder - Round 2, Pick 34
• Paul Millsap - Round 2, Pick 47
• Rudy Gobert - Round 1, Pick 27
• Damontas Sabonis - Round 1, Pick 11
• Pascal Siakam - Round 1, Pick 27
• Jermaine O'Neal - Round 1, Pick 17
• John Collins - Round 1, Pick 19
• Ben Wallace - Undrafted
• Dennis Rodman - Round 2, Pick 27
• Bam Adebayo - Round 1, Pick 14
• Alan Henderson - Round 1, Pick 16
• Clint Capela - Round 1, Pick 25
• Anthony Mason - Round 3, Pick 53
• Giannis Antetokounmpo - Round 1, Pick 15
• Nikola Vucevic - Round 1, Pick 16
• Steven Adams - Round 1, Pick 12
• Deandre Jordan - Round 2, Pick 35

That's JUST frontcourt guys off the top of my head.  Yes, there are some late-ish lottery picks in there and yes, I'm using my wretched subjective scale, but to me 10~14 is more or less mid 1st round quality.  This is 5 minutes worth of thought and Google for reference.  If I had the time I could find more frontcourt guys...  I'm not saying it's a walk in the park, but with good scouting these guys are readily available year after year in the draft. 

It also says nothing of former lottery picks like Al Horford, Blake Griffin, and LaMarcus Aldridge that you can get for pennies on the dollar later in their careers.  I'm not saying that OO's ceiling is super limited or that he's not going to be any better than any of these guys.  I'm only saying that if you need a serviceable starter or bench player, my guy....you can find that all day long in the draft, on the trade market, and in free agency.  I'm not saying we wasted a pick on OO.  I'm saying if his ceiling is "a serviceable big man with good/great intangibles" then we absolutely did not have to burn a *high* lottery pick on him.

That is an interesting list since some of those players were great (and would be well worth $20-30M today) while others weren’t very good and others are outstanding offensive players but not great defenders.  Also not sure about calling out Al “27 million a season” Horford as a cheap contract.

OO needs to develop from where he is now to be worth the pick but I’ve already seen some very good things from him despite (as sturt laid out) his young age and developmental obstacles career to date.  I remain very excited about him and hope he has his first true offseason to add tools this year.  Also hope Nate removes the parking boot and let’s him really get after it this season.

If he becomes the player I hope to see then I won’t be bothered in the slightest if we could have drafted him at #11 or something.

[kg01]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

More like this:

You know I'm contractually obligated to come in off tha top rope, right?

Start windmillin' with fists, ask questions later.