The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[Hawkmoor]

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

Just giving examples.  You are saying no, let's not trade anyone. I'm saying if someone has a reasonable deal that makes us considerably better you take it.  That's not standing pat and waiting, that's improving because there's a good deal for you. 

Utah may want to cut salary who knows crazy things happen.

And if that pipe dream were to happen? Would you make that trade?

Heck, even Travis said he made a mistake running it back, and @Peoriabird wants to do it AGAIN? 

[REHawksFan]

49 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You are expecting more from other than from Trae. Trae was hot and cold also. 

This is comical.  This season, Hunter had more single-digit scoring games than 20 pts games. He had more 2 or less Reb games than 5+ reb games.  If Hunter was half as consistent over the course of the season as Trae they wouldn't have been in the play in and Miami wouldn't have been able to focus on Trae alone. 

The same can be said for Huerter and Bogi.  The point is valid. The wings this year are WILDLY inconsistent.  Trae was the ONLY consistent player on the perimeter all year.   

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

You are expecting more from other than from Trae. Trae was hot and cold also.  And I'm pretty sure that is the case with Donavan Mitchell seeing that his shooting splits were worse than Trae's. Having said that, the team is still extremely young and will get better.

What ....no, no, no. I know what my expectations are for Trae. 

What I wanted to see from the 'others' (I'm talking Wings) throughout the season was a level of CONSISTENCY that elevated their games alongside Trae, to relieve his offensive burden. Pick up the slack that leads to wins when Trae struggles, have a tangible impact in those instances (like Huerter did in game 7 vs Philly)

I was hoping for any of them to be in the running for:

1. Possible Allstar discussion as an injury replacement 

2. Top 3 for 6th man of the year

3. Top 3 for MIP

4. Invite to 3pt contest

ANYTHING....Those aren't unrealistic or unreasonable expectations 

 

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Excuse me while I interrupt your narrative with some facts.. but... 

In the regular season, when we had Clint and JC healthy.. we beat them.  They beat us twice when Clint didn't play.  But when we had both Clint and JC.. we beat them.

Carry On.

 

 

If you're only talking about the Heat.  Sure.  Though, I believe Miami is fool's gold - a better version of the blue collar Hawks of yore.  Still a pretender and not intimidating at all.  I said in the Miami thread that if we were healthy, we could beat them.  I'm not just talking about Miami and I'm not talking about just the regular season.  I'm talking about a sample size of 2-3 years and the increased physicality (or curious whistle swallowing if you prefer) in the playoffs.  There's no narrative.  That's why we're having this conversation.  It's why you want Mitchell. 

The formula for beating the Hawks, and IMHO the biggest factor in why we underachieved, is because the league watched Trae dismantle the Eastern Conference before he went down...and doubled down on him.  There were a couple of games 2 seasons ago where Denver (I believe it was Denver) ran some junk defense at us to similar results to what Miami achieved in the playoffs this year.  It's not a secret sauce and it's not a narrative.  Trae IS our offense.

[AHF]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Let's be honest, you go to RealGM, or around NBA league guys and ask them who's the worst defender in the NBA. All will say Trae Young. Ask players who's played the Hawks, they will say Trae Young. Even Hawk players think Trae is ass on defense. I don't know what else you want besides that. 

I’d be interested to see you respond to the post I made when we were discussing this and I listed a ton of defensive metrics and gave pretty extensive thoughts on this.  You seemed to miss that post or not want to engage with it if you read it.

But I can assure you that I will never rely on popular opinion on RealGM to inform my basketball view for anything.  If I did, I would be putting big money down on a Raptors / Mavericks finals and listening all day to people making the case for why Devin Booker (or whatever flavor de jour wing the poster likes) > Michael Jordan and Morant > Magic, etc.  

I know you are aware that an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy but using RealGM as the authority in that type of fallacious argument is quite…well I can’t come up with a nice thing to say here so I’ll just end the post.

[marco102]

2 hours ago, DS5 said:

A lot of us are doing what other team's fans have been doing for years with Hawks players. The suggestions here are so unrealistic as if the other teams just want to get rid of talent.

Brooklyn is not trading Simmons for Gallo and Bogi regardless of what their cap situation and how much of knucklehead he is. Someone will pay more. I’m sure we’d need to send at least Capela or JC on a Simmons trade, and more. OKC is not trading their best player who happens to be really young for more picks and a bunch of mediocre players (Bogi or Huerter). To get D. Mitchell we’d need to send at least JC and Hunter. Probably a few picks too.

Let’s be realistic.

My proposal wasn't realistic. Maybe read the entire a few posts back to see why I proposed the trade I did. 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

Don't expect a trade unless its for someone wanting to dump a $20 million salary so they can waive Gallo and get their own tax savings. Gallo will not be sent out in a sign and trade so any trade would have to be for someone with at least 2 years left on their contract for

Seems the new CBA won't allow us to trade Gallo so another team can get the savings by releasing him for $5 mil. We can only trade him.for the guaranteed portion in taking back salary or guarantee his full salary

Or am I missing something.

Quote

Under the NBA’s old Collective Bargaining Agreement, which was in effect through the 2016/17 season, a player’s full salary (not including unlikely incentives) was used for trade purposes, whether or not it was guaranteed. If a player had an $10MM salary with a partial guarantee of $1MM, his outgoing salary in a trade was the same as it would have been for a player who had a fully guaranteed $10MM contract.

That’s no longer the case under the league’s new CBA, however. While contracts signed under the old agreement still operate by the old rules, contracts signed after July 1, 2017 will be subject to the rules of the current CBA.

Under the current CBA, only the guaranteed portion of a player’s contract counts for outgoing salary purposes in a trade, limiting the appeal of non-guaranteed salaries as trade chips.

This detail is crucial for determining how much salary a team can acquire in a trade — unless a team is under the cap, the amount of salary it sends out in a trade dictates how much salary it can take back. The amount of salary an over-the-cap team can acquire in a trade ranges from 125% to 175% of its outgoing salary, depending on how much salary the team is sending out and whether or not the team is a taxpayer.

In the old system, it might make sense for a cap-strapped club to trade a player with a guaranteed salary for a player earning an equivalent non-guaranteed salary — the cap-strapped club could then waive that newly-acquired player to cut costs. That’s trickier to do now.

Complicating matters further is that a team can’t simply circumvent the new rules by trading a player before a league year ends on June 30, then having his new team waive him when his non-guaranteed salary goes into effect on July 1. After the end of the regular season, a player’s outgoing salary for trade purposes is the lesser of his current-year salary and the guaranteed portion of his salary for the following season.

Here’s a practical example: Darren Collison‘s deal with the Pacers featured a fully guaranteed $10MM this season, with only $2MM of $10MM guaranteed for 2018/19. Once the regular season ends this year, Collison would only count for $2MM in outgoing salary for trade purposes.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/03/how-non-guaranteed-salaries-will-affect-trades-in-new-cba.html

[RandomFan]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

For Brooklyn, making that trade and then waiving Gallo saves them about $12 million in salary next year but saves them like $55 million against the LT.

Agree with most of what you said in that post string, except we'll have to outbid other teams for Ben Simmons so I doubt that would be enough to get him. And second, Gobert is a downgrade on offense compared to Cap. He's literally Shaqtin-a-Fool on offense. 

[JTB]

9 hours ago, DS5 said:

A lot of us are doing what other team's fans have been doing for years with Hawks players. The suggestions here are so unrealistic as if the other teams just want to get rid of talent.

Brooklyn is not trading Simmons for Gallo and Bogi regardless of what their cap situation and how much of knucklehead he is. Someone will pay more. I’m sure we’d need to send at least Capela or JC on a Simmons trade, and more. OKC is not trading their best player who happens to be really young for more picks and a bunch of mediocre players (Bogi or Huerter). To get D. Mitchell we’d need to send at least JC and Hunter. Probably a few picks too.

Let’s be realistic.

I agree with the majority of this. I think the Simmons back surgery and mental episodes could drive his price down however it just really depends if Brooklyn sees something wrong with Simmons recovery and they try to ship him off before the rest of the league catches on. 
 

For SGA, Mitchell, Murray yeah I’m in 100% agreement that we’re not getting any of those guys without packaging a trade around either Hunter or Collins….it is what it is. I mentioned this in my post about trading for Mitchell some pages ago as well.

 

it looks like on all my post I want to get rid of collins but in reality I’m trying to be realistic and seek an impact trade. For me and what I’ve gathered through our insiders here, the athletic, and a few other sources I trust most teams are interested in hunter or collins which makes sense and if we are going to try to improve the roster it’s clear to me that schlenk is going to have to pick one to keep …..I’d rather keep Hunter because the need of perimeter defense and the fact that I believe it’s extremely hard to find a bigger bodied SF. Collins is very good all around player but OO and hopefully Jalen helps his departure not be as bad. I’d gamble on OO developing a solid mid range jumper this off season to play PF full time.

 

sorry for the long post just wanted to let you know that everyone on this board isn’t crazy ….some of us know we can’t just trade junk and get another teams best player back. Unfortunately Hunter or JC will likely be traded this off season in effort to improve this roster in my opinion.

[JTB]

6 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Agree with most of what you said in that post string, except we'll have to outbid other teams for Ben Simmons so I doubt that would be enough to get him. And second, Gobert is a downgrade on offense compared to Cap. He's literally Shaqtin-a-Fool on offense. 

I disagree. Regardless of Gobert clumsy moments this guy avg 15-17 ppg in his time with the jazz shooting at crazy high percentages around the goal and rightfully so since he’s 7’1 or 7’2….but with no true playmaker and the teams best offense player not ever passing him the ball as we found out with  the help of advanced stats.

Capela on the other had avg 15-17 pts per game through certain times in his career playing with two elite passers in Harden and Trae.

I think it’s obvious that if Gobert comes to Atlanta he’s going to look like a two way player for the first time in his career per the stat line (that is) avg 20-24 ppg because Trae Young is just that damn good with getting  bigs involved  using the pick.

[RandomFan]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I disagree. Regardless of Gobert clumsy moments this guy avg 15-17 ppg in his time with the jazz shooting at crazy high percentages around the goal and rightfully so since he’s 7’1 or 7’2….but with no true playmaker and the teams best offense player not ever passing him the ball as we found out with  the help of advanced stats.

Capela on the other had avg 15-17 pts per game through certain times in his career playing with two elite passers in Harden and Trae.

I think it’s obvious that if Gobert comes to Atlanta he’s going to look like a two way player for the first time in his career per the stat line (that is) avg 20-24 ppg because Trae Young is just that damn good with getting  bigs involved  using the pick.

There is a reason they try to avoid passing him the ball, because he shaqtin-a-fool's it entirely too often. 

Just this past season:

Gobert = 2120 minutes played = 119 turnovers

Capela = 2042 minutes played = 44 turnovers. 

And that's without him trying to catch the out of nowhere passes that Trae zings at times. 

BUTTERFINGERS

ain't helping our offense get better.

Edited May 13, 2022 by RandomFan

[kelston827]

9 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Agree with most of what you said in that post string, except we'll have to outbid other teams for Ben Simmons so I doubt that would be enough to get him. And second, Gobert is a downgrade on offense compared to Cap. He's literally Shaqtin-a-Fool on offense. 

The idea ANYONE would get into a bidding war for Ben freaking Simmons just goes to show how gullible humans are.

Simmons is garbage - soft, a head case, with HUGE holes in his game. Why can’t you see that?!? Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie, Simmons, Gobert are all EXACTLY the same. They have no heart, extremely limited skills, and will NEVER win anything.

Stop coming up with fantasy trades for soft bums. If this team truly wants to improve, that’s Lavine or Ayton. The rest of those bums are worthless.

[RandomFan]

2 minutes ago, kelston827 said:

The idea ANYONE would get into a bidding war for Ben freaking Simmons just goes to show how gullible humans are.

Simmons is garbage - soft, a head case, with HUGE holes in his game. Why can’t you see that?!? Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie, Simmons, Gobert are all EXACTLY the same. They have no heart, extremely limited skills, and will NEVER win anything.

Stop coming up with fantasy trades for soft bums. If this team truly wants to improve, that’s Lavine or Ayton. The rest of those bums are worthless.

[bird_dirt]

15 hours ago, thecampster said:

Riddle me this @Diesel.  How much of Clint's scoring is because of who he's played with (Harden/Trae)?  How much of Gobert's scoring is because of who he played with?

I would submit that Gobert paired with Trae ups his scoring 3-5 points per game and given Trae's gravity, would probably get another rebound or 2 a game put back.   Does Clint command a double in the post? Does Gobert? How does that affect JC/Hunter's scoring?

 

Now given what I said above...how much of an impact does Mitchell provide, a player that needs the ball in his hands to succeed?

I throw up in my mouth a little every time I think about Gobert’s salary here, but if I’m being honest, your proposition of Trae, Simmons, Hunter, JC, Gobert has me intrigued to say the least. Maybe It’s just the exhaustion reading through this thread clouding my brain. IDK. 
 

But there’s one point I want to put out there that I’ve heard a few Gobert lovers mention that I don’t follow. 
I have serious doubts Trae would improve Gobert ppg by 3-5. If Trae really does increase a Cs offensive value that much, then we’d see more out of CC than we have.  Clint averaged more ppg his last full season at Houston than he has any year in Atlanta. 

Like Clint, Gobert’s primary value isn’t offense, so I don’t see Trae unlocking another level in that part of his game. That’s just not where the focus of their play leads them. I could see Trae elevating a more offensively minded C though, like Ayton or Wiseman to a lesser degree. 

[Diesel]

40 Million dollars. 

If we were trading CC's 22 Million for Gobert's 22 Million, then i would have no problems because the production would be about the same.    But there's no way that Gobert is 20 million dollars better than CC. 

I'd rather offer Drummond or Whiteside 1/2 of our MLE and roll with him as our 3rd C than sit around and pay Gobert 40 Million dollars. 

I would rather use the #16 pick to draft Duren or Mark Williams than to pay Gobert 40 Million dollars.

At the end of the day, that move doesn't fix anything that needs fixing. 

 

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Like Clint, Gobert’s primary value isn’t offense, so I don’t see Trae unlocking another level in that part of his game. That’s just not where the focus of their play leads them. I could see Trae elevating a more offensively minded C though, like Ayton or Wiseman to a lesser degree. 

I see it as something modest similar to CC going from 13 points to 15 last year.  Gobert is a 15 point guy so maybe he goes to 17 or 18.  He isn't going to be busting out for 23 ppg or anything unless I'm just fundamentally mistaken about Gobert's offensive upside.

[JTB]

Anyone like this trade ?

 

 

 

[bird_dirt]

12 hours ago, AHF said:

I see it as something modest similar to CC going from 13 points to 15 last year.  Gobert is a 15 point guy so maybe he goes to 17 or 18.  He isn't going to be busting out for 23 ppg or anything unless I'm just fundamentally mistaken about Gobert's offensive upside.

Yeah, but CC was at over 16 his last full season before playing with Trae, higher than any season in Atlanta. 
While Trae *could* potential raise a C’s offense, the best case study doesn’t reflect that outcome, so it’s not something I would count on. 

[NBASupes]

8 hours ago, bird_dirt said:

Yeah, but CC was at over 16 his last full season before playing with Trae, higher than any season in Atlanta. 
While Trae *could* potential raise a C’s offense, the best case study doesn’t reflect that outcome, so it’s not something I would count on. 

He was playing with prime Harden and CP3. That's center heaven right there

 

[JTB]

I strongly believe that Gobert will be a Hawk this off season some how but just not sure for whom yet. It’s definitely going to be a trade package around either Hunter or Collins. Definitely not both of Hunter and Collins in the same deal though.

I also believe Malcom Brogdon is a strong target with Indy rebuilding. 
 

I’ve been playing around with the trade machine to try to get a realistic trade that works for all teams.

 

 

above is my latest trade idea that I believe works all around. 
 

TRADE Breakdowns

Jazz:

Hunter (newly signed contract at 14mil per season) + Huerter for Gobert

 

Since the Jazz is intrigued by Hunter I did a SnT giving Hunter 14m per year (which I believe he will likely get this off season) then added Huerter as a filler who’s liked around the league for Gobert.

I realize that this trade leaves the Jazz thin at Center but I figured since this would be considered a beginning of a rebuild around Mitchell then Jazz would probably resign Derrick Favors to play starting center similar to what they’ve done in the past when Gobert was injured. At the very least Jazz gets their perimeter defender they want in Hunter to pair with Mitchell plus a much younger shooter in Red Velvet.

 

Raptors:

OG for Capela 

Word is the Raptors need a center…a true center not a small ball center. Well with the Hawks acquiring Gobert in trade they can already have a deal on the table with the Raptors as long as the Gobert deal goes through. Trade Capela to the Raptors to give them a true center and get back a two way SF in OG to replace Hunter. Personally looking at the Raps I think with the emergence of Scottie Barnes and Gary Trent Jr , OG could possibly get the short end of the stick or in this case be placed on trade block. 

The Raps getting Capela to pair with Siakam would be big time for them in my opinion. I see this as a fair deal on both sides and one that Ujiri would really consider.

 

Indiana:

Gallo for Brogdon

This one is easy but very interesting. First off the trade is a no brainer Hawks get Brogdon a true secondary playmaker and a guy who can really create his own shot and play good defense (of course when healthy). Pacers get off of Brogdons contract and create cap space by trading and not resigning Gallo on his current contract. Meanwhile they continue to rebuild around Halliburton.

Again easy trade to pull off…I am not concerned about Brogdons injury history. In this day and age all these players have some kind of injury history seem like. I think what’s interesting in this Brogdon trade is that there was apparently some flair up between him and Nate McMillan back in Indy when both were there but I’m confident both are mature enough to get over whatever that was (*cough* offense system).

 

2022-2023 Hawks starting lineup

PG - Trae

SG - Brogdon 

SF - OG Anouby

PF - Collins 

C - Gobert 

Bench

PG - Wright

SG - Bogi (sixth man)

SF - TLC ???

PF - Jalen Johnson 

C - OKungwu 

 

We added an elite yet historic defensive minded center Gobert. A true secondary scorer in Brogdon who can also playmaker and defend well. A two way player in OG who’s actually a better scorer than Hunter at the time. We keep Collins who the front office believes will be more impactful with a better center (Gobert). 
More physical and aggressive players around Trae which I think JC would feed off on.