Okongwu & the Summer that Changed Everything

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Yeah and it’s a bad philosophy imo. Shape the scheme around your personnel. We started dropping more the last two weeks and using double bigs and d rating slowly got better (still awful) but forcing them to play in a scheme that isn’t good for them is just dumb imo. But I’m team soft rebuild so these losses are good for the long term 

We lost Dre. Dre is single-handedly our most important piece on for perimeter D. He's underrated on here due to his offensive questions and certain posters opinions but it shows in the numbers when he's gone. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

We lost Dre. Dre is single-handedly our most important piece on for perimeter D. He's underrated on here due to his offensive questions and certain posters opinions but it shows in the numbers when he's gone. 

Our perimeter defense was not the issue. 

We gave up 24 2nd chance points. 

Hawks gave up 7 offensive rebounds alone in the 4th quarter.

Could 12 have played better defense on DeRozan in the 4th ( who was a perfect 4 - 4 in the quarter )?  Possibly.

But he hasn't stopped anyone during crunch time situations all year.

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Our perimeter defense was not the issue. 

We gave up 24 2nd chance points. 

Hawks gave up 7 offensive rebounds alone in the 4th quarter.

Could 12 have played better defense on DeRozan in the 4th ( who was a perfect 4 - 4 in the quarter )?  Possibly.

But he hasn't stopped anyone during crunch time situations all year.

Lmao what? Of course the perimeter D is the issue. 

If you talking just last night then yeah, Drummond does what he always does to us. Dominate.

[Gray Mule]

Drummond could have been, should have been a Hawk.

[bird_dirt]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

We lost Dre. Dre is single-handedly our most important piece on for perimeter D. He's underrated on here due to his offensive questions and certain posters opinions but it shows in the numbers when he's gone. 

Dre is a good player, but he isn’t underrated, he underperforms. We miss his length on defense, but he doesn’t exploit that length enough to impact games more in other areas, like by actually grabbing rebounds. You want to know what shows when he’s gone? A higher win % (50.5% in missed games vs 45.8% in games played).

I'm with North this time. Perimeter D is a problem, but letting opponents get second, third, and fourth chances is what is keeping them in games. Unfortunately, all our players suck rebounding this year. 

[JayBirdHawk]

What's happened to OO, his energy, toughness, grit?

[RedDawg#8]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What's happened to OO, his energy, toughness, grit?

Got the bag

[Gray Mule]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What's happened to OO, his energy, toughness, grit?

Big 00 is an ill-fitting NBA player.  He plays center mostly.  Has the size to be a PF.  He's just not improving like we all thought that he would.  What happened?  I don't know.  I just know he's not getting there.  Haliburton, who was there for the taking when we drafted Big 00, is prospering in his role, as we found out when we dropped in on the Pacers last night.

[kg01]

42 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Got the bag

I want you to be wrong, but I certainly can't prove it.  I don't care if he's in the wrong place, freaking play with energy.  That's not too much to ask.

[RedDawg#8]

I truly believe OO, and likely others, are struggling with whatever concepts Quinn wants to run.

OO still makes eye popping plays but just not as often. He still has elite physical ability and defensive skillset, but he is often not in position to do anything with it.

It’s like he is a rookie again where the game is moving too fast. I see this from a lot of our guys. We have some high level basketball players on this team that have been used to a coach/system that took advantage of their talent individually. Quinn is putting in a system that takes 5 guys on the same page on both sides and it may take you away from your strengths for the betterment of the whole.

Clint and OO used to feast in drop PnR coverage protecting the paint, Quinn wants them up. He want wings to close in on the paint which is why open three’s are killing us and we have no physical resistance at the rim anymore because the rotation are small bodies.

OO in theory should excel better in this scheme because he is more mobile than CC but he is also having to read a larger field of view with more defensive responsibilities.

It’s going to take time for a lot of guys to figure out the nuances and their spots. It’s no longer about talent anymore. It takes IQ. I think that’s why Trae has excelled after such a rough start, because he is a brilliant basketball player. Same with JJ. He was actually more limited in the Nate scheme. He is showcasing all of his basketball tools in Quinn’s scheme because it calls for that versatility.

I don’t know that effort is all that would help. Because doing too much in this scheme hangs your teammates out to dry. Just like we said in October with Trae, OO needs time to adjust and figure his new spots out.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

23 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I truly believe OO, and likely others, are struggling with whatever concepts Quinn wants to run.

OO still makes eye popping plays but just not as often. He still has elite physical ability and defensive skillset, but he is often not in position to do anything with it.

It’s like he is a rookie again where the game is moving too fast. I see this from a lot of our guys. We have some high level basketball players on this team that have been used to a coach/system that took advantage of their talent individually. Quinn is putting in a system that takes 5 guys on the same page on both sides and it may take you away from your strengths for the betterment of the whole.

Clint and OO used to feast in drop PnR coverage protecting the paint, Quinn wants them up. He want wings to close in on the paint which is why open three’s are killing us and we have no physical resistance at the rim anymore because the rotation are small bodies.

OO in theory should excel better in this scheme because he is more mobile than CC but he is also having to read a larger field of view with more defensive responsibilities.

It’s going to take time for a lot of guys to figure out the nuances and their spots. It’s no longer about talent anymore. It takes IQ. I think that’s why Trae has excelled after such a rough start, because he is a brilliant basketball player. Same with JJ. He was actually more limited in the Nate scheme. He is showcasing all of his basketball tools in Quinn’s scheme because it calls for that versatility.

I don’t know that effort is all that would help. Because doing too much in this scheme hangs your teammates out to dry. Just like we said in October with Trae, OO needs time to adjust and figure his new spots out.

 

This all means that Quin is part of the problem too.

His unwillingness to change a scheme that obviously isn't working, is an indictment on his coaching ability.

Overall, we have an unathletic, small, and soft basketball team, trying to play some elaborate defensive scheme that  has led us to be a bottom 5 defensive team.

A good coach would at least attempt to fix that with different lineup changes, personnel, and schemes.

 

Quin has to take a major hit as to why we're so poor defensively.

[JayBirdHawk]

What a Dissapointing season he's having so far. 

[kg01]

36 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What a Dissapointing season he's having so far. 

This summer definitely changed everything.  But it was the bagg and not the work that changed things, it seems. 

[JayBirdHawk]

I keep saying it's time to find out what OO is moving forward for extended minutes.

 

 

[SalvorMallow]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I keep saying it's time to find out what OO is moving forward for extended minutes.

 

 

Lmao at the thread. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

I concur!

[RedDawg#8]

OO is not consistent enough for anyone to feel comfortable with him as the full time starter, but, that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get an opportunity to try. Especially before we decide to move CC. Why can’t we bring CC off the bench before moving on from him?

There are many teams that would kill for a veteran backup center like him, especially for certain matchups.

But I think OO and JJ play tremendous next to one another and we should go to it more often.

I also think that OO fits Quinns scheme better. Without a better option I would keep CC around, because he has value. I just wish Quinn would try this out now so we could at least see if it could work.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, RedDawg#8 said:

OO is not consistent enough for anyone to feel comfortable with him as the full time starter, but, that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get an opportunity to try. Especially before we decide to move CC. Why can’t we bring CC off the bench before moving on from him?

There are many teams that would kill for a veteran backup center like him, especially for certain matchups.

But I think OO and JJ play tremendous next to one another and we should go to it more often.

I also think that OO fits Quinns scheme better. Without a better option I would keep CC around, because he has value. I just wish Quinn would try this out now so we could at least see if it could work.

If you plan on ultimately trading him then having him come off the bench is not a good way to max his value.  I would just shift the minutes so OO gets more time against opposing starters.

[RedDawg#8]

28 minutes ago, AHF said:

If you plan on ultimately trading him then having him come off the bench is not a good way to max his value.  I would just shift the minutes so OO gets more time against opposing starters.

Im, possibly naively, still trying to win games moreso than leveraging trade value. I would like to max the potential out of this roster before disbanding it. Imagine trading CC and then having to spend more assets to find a backup center, when you could just change the lineup and see if OO’s versatility holds up better as a starter while CC is your matchup big.

Separately, I feel like every team has a starting center, even the bad one’s. Clint is not expiring yet so he probably won’t go to a rebuilding team or one looking to shed salary. Clint’s best value will be as a backup center on a contender that needs good reserve minutes and a stylistic change from their starter.

Lastly, CC has been a starting center on playoff teams for 95% of his career. If teams don’t already know his value, capabilities, skillset, etc… they never will. He is nothing new today than he was before, outside of a better foul shooter.

So, honestly speaking, he probably doesn’t have a market. We are likely stuck with him.

 

 

[NBASupes]

9 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Im, possibly naively, still trying to win games moreso than leveraging trade value. I would like to max the potential out of this roster before disbanding it. Imagine trading CC and then having to spend more assets to find a backup center, when you could just change the lineup and see if OO’s versatility holds up better as a starter while CC is your matchup big.

Separately, I feel like every team has a starting center, even the bad one’s. Clint is not expiring yet so he probably won’t go to a rebuilding team or one looking to shed salary. Clint’s best value will be as a backup center on a contender that needs good reserve minutes and a stylistic change from their starter.

Lastly, CC has been a starting center on playoff teams for 95% of his career. If teams don’t already know his value, capabilities, skillset, etc… they never will. He is nothing new today than he was before, outside of a better foul shooter.

So, honestly speaking, he probably doesn’t have a market. We are likely stuck with him.

 

 

Clint ain't the athlete he used to be and without that speed and quickness advantage he used to have, he's more limited than before and that's why teams aren't head over heels over him as they were in previous seasons.