Hawks looking to move John Collins? This again?

[JeffS17]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I think the frustrating thing for me is not JC potentially being traded, but how much offensive talent we have on the court that isn't being utilized properly.  Trading JC feels like a move we would make to accommodate Nate's horrendously basic offensive principles.  He doesn't know how to design an offense with two very good playmakers, two rim runners, etc.  We're trying to back into pieces that fit what our coach can handle instead of addressing the root issue.  I don't think JC is as big of an issue on defense as some here might suggest.

To add to this, the one thing I really wanted when we decided to get rid of LP was a creative coach.  A standard by-the-book established coach is probably the worst thing to have when we're building around an extremely non-traditional undersized PG.  We NEED to be experimenting and trying different things.

[nathan2331]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's actually obvious why we would choose him to be gone. The most obvious on the team. Because he don't fit no more and his contract is impact level so he has to be an impact at least on one side of the court. He was an impact for us but we had a limit for our team's success. Sadly, JC is another casualty of Trae's horrendous defense like Kevin was.

The defense has been good this year with Trae and JC so you can't use that as an excuse. JC fits this team better than any PF you could hope to replace him with in a trade. If his shot was falling like it usually does, there would be no complaints with his game. He's doing everything else as well as you could hope besides shoot.

[kg01]

20 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Another potential trade for JC, we were linked to Jerami Grant a bit. He’s versatile and fits better than JC. He’s got that outside touch with a beautiful inside game. This dude’s skills have improved every year, good genes and good habits apparently passed on from Harvey and Unc Ho.

Trae/DM/Hunter/Grant/Cap

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2nezfrkh

POR is basically #1 in the west.  They're not trading rn.  We gotta stop buying into the pro-Suns hype. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

The defense has been good this year with Trae and JC so you can't use that as an excuse. JC fits this team better than any PF you could hope to replace him with in a trade. If his shot was falling like it usually does, there would be no complaints with his game. He's doing everything else as well as you could hope besides shoot.

JC defense has been good, probably the best its been but not that good. 

He still struggles against size + talent. He doesn't guard Giannis or any very good PF well and he's doesn't have the same impact with OO or JJ that he had with Gallo. More than anything, we are just too small on defense, I know JJ,  Crowder, or Cam Johnson doesn't change that either, they aren't making 125 million. Who else can we replace? Capela? Why would we replace a top 3 defensive center and get better doing it. 

Offensively, that's not his fault, his impact died the minute Murray came. He gets limited touches and both Murray and Trae prefer Capela and even OO screens to JC. Hell, we running wing actions for JC just to get touches. He's the odd man out. Last year, it was either Bogi or Kevin. This year, it's JC. He's good. Hell, I really like him even if it seems I'm a hater but when we got Murray, it was the death of JC in Atlanta. He's still a good player. Damn good I should add and better than Kevin. The lack of spacing really hurts JC probably more than anyone outside of Trae. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by NBASupes

[StonedDogs]

John Collins is not your problem 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

To add to this, the one thing I really wanted when we decided to get rid of LP was a creative coach.  A standard by-the-book established coach is probably the worst thing to have when we're building around an extremely non-traditional undersized PG.  We NEED to be experimenting and trying different things.

Unfortunately, as an interim, Nate showed that he can be incredibly successful with the players we had...  Damn.

 

[NBASupes]

Me personally, i wouldn't trade JC unless I can get better from it. The Kevin trade is proof of trading for picks is useless. 

I need legit 4 that can help us. My ideal 4 is always JJJ for us. But here are 4s I would be interested in

Lauri

Randle plus 1st round picks

Cam Johnson

AD

and the player I covet the most, Kevin Durant.

Other than Hunter, Trae, Clint, and Murray. I'll trade everyone else and all picks for Durant. JJ, Griffin or OO. Not Bogi tho and not both Griffin and OO. 

I wouldn't trade OO either for anyone not named Durant on this list. OO is not really replaceable for us but for Durant, you gotta think about it. Unless Durant is playing the 3, then it's Hunter that's trade bait for KD. Otherwise, he's not as long as KD is a 4. 

To me, Hunter, JC and picks for Durant make sense but can Hunter be traded this year is the question? I know he's a BYC.

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

JC defense has been good, probably the best its been but not that good. 

He still struggles against size + talent. He doesn't guard Giannis or any very good PF well and he's doesn't have the same impact with OO or JJ that he had with Gallo.

Well....

Let's see...  3 games vs. Giannis...  2 wins.

2 games vs. Embiid..  1 win.

1 game vs. Mitchell Robinson/Julius Randolph.... 1 win...

1 game vs. Zion Williamson ...  1 win.

Damn.   JC vs. Bigs = Hawks win most of the time...

OK.

 

[nathan2331]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

JC defense has been good, probably the best its been but not that good. 

He still struggles against size + talent. He doesn't guard Giannis or any very good PF well and he's doesn't have the same impact with OO or JJ that he had with Gallo. More than anything, we are just too small on defense, I know JJ,  Crowder, or Cam Johnson doesn't change that either, they aren't making 125 million. Who else can we replace? Capela? Why would we replace a top 3 defensive center and get better doing it. 

Offensively, that's not his fault, his impact died the minute Murray came. He gets limited touches and both Murray and Trae prefer Capela and even OO screens to JC. Hell, we running wing actions for JC just to get touches. He's the odd man out. Last year, it was either Bogi or Kevin. This year, it's JC. He's good. Hell, I really like him even if it seems I'm a hater but when we got Murray, it was the death of JC in Atlanta. He's still a good player. Damn good I should add and better than Kevin. The lack of spacing really hurts JC probably more than anyone outside of Trae. 

I don't think you're a JC hater, I just think your wrong about your critique of his fit on this team. The reason Capela and OO are used more to screen is that neither can space the floor as well as JC if JC is used in the PnR. Opposing teams are selling out to stop the lob at the rim and they're correct to do it because we haven't been able to take and make 3 point shots with any consistency this season. Replacing JC won't change that.

Murray's addition to this team doesn't make JC redundant, but it does require us to do other things outside of PnR to generate good shots because we don't have the same shooting on the perimeter. I think our offensive struggles are most highlighted when the bench comes in the game. The majority of the season so far our bench has played with very little synergy. We've got JJ who's  clearly talented, but we use him like JC when he's got a different skillset. That's on coaching, McMillan has reduced our offense to Trae/Murray PnR and off-ball screens to free up a shooter. Our talent level is getting us points, but we're having a harder time generating good shots than we should be seeing.

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Unfortunately, as an interim, Nate showed that he can be incredibly successful with the players we had...  Damn.

 

It's a valid perspective, but mine is that Nate was just not Lloyd Pierce who had completely lost the locker room, so his firing was a motivation for the whole team to play and perform better.  Don't forget that it was LPs system that led us deep into the playoffs.  Once Nate turned over the staff, hired his son, and overhauled our system, our team went from overperforming to underperforming.  I know you're the biggest Nate stan on the forum and this will not resonate with you, but that's how I view the last 2 years.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

It's a valid perspective, but mine is that Nate was just not Lloyd Pierce who had completely lost the locker room, so his firing was a motivation for the whole team to play and perform better.  Don't forget that it was LPs system that led us deep into the playoffs.  Once Nate turned over the staff, hired his son, and overhauled our system, our team went from overperforming to underperforming.  I know you're the biggest Nate stan on the forum and this will not resonate with you, but that's how I view the last 2 years.

So you're point is that the team had it in them to win the whole time, they were just rebelling against LP??

That's what you said... right.   

• LP's system
• Players decided to play and perform better...

 

GTFOH with that mess. 

 

[JeffS17]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So you're point is that the team had it in them to win the whole time, they were just rebelling against LP??

That's what you said... right.   

• LP's system
• Players decided to play and perform better...

 

GTFOH with that mess. 

 

Yeah, that's literally what we saw on the court lol... do you not remember Trae's pouting and standing around?  Go back and watch the few games before LP was fired and the games after.  The energy of the team is night and day different.  We went from looking like we were actively tanking to game 7 playoff intensity overnight.  If you think that's because Nate told them to play harder and you want to attribute our success to him, that's fine, but that's just not really how I see it.

And it makes perfect sense too.  LP lost the locker room, guys didn't want to play for him, and he was unusually combative towards Trae even outside of Hawks stuff (recommending Trae not be on team USA or an all-star, etc.).  I see it as getting rid of LP was the shift we needed, but our success didn't have much to do with who we had in there as an interim.

[NBASupes]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

I don't think you're a JC hater, I just think your wrong about your critique of his fit on this team. The reason Capela and OO are used more to screen is that neither can space the floor as well as JC if JC is used in the PnR. Opposing teams are selling out to stop the lob at the rim and they're correct to do it because we haven't been able to take and make 3 point shots with any consistency this season. Replacing JC won't change that.

Murray's addition to this team doesn't make JC redundant, but it does require us to do other things outside of PnR to generate good shots because we don't have the same shooting on the perimeter. I think our offensive struggles are most highlighted when the bench comes in the game. The majority of the season so far our bench has played with very little synergy. We've got JJ who's  clearly talented, but we use him like JC when he's got a different skillset. That's on coaching, McMillan has reduced our offense to Trae/Murray PnR and off-ball screens to free up a shooter. Our talent level is getting us points, but we're having a harder time generating good shots than we should be seeing.

As of right now, neither can JC space the floor and how, teams are clogging it.

The reason they are used more for screens is that there screens connect. JC flairs, when spacing is jacked, flairing doesn't work as we saw with Horford in Philadelphia. JC struggles is due to Murray lack of range and teams realizing Trae needs space so don't give him any. As a result, Trae is struggling offensively as is JC. Capela and OO don't need any space. They are finishers with size and bulk. JC is smaller, he needs space too. Anthony Edwards is dealing with the same shit in Minnesota after the Gobert trade.

I agree, opposing teams are selling out to the paint, impacting lobs as well, and allowing us to shoot low percentage 3s. They aren't giving us the corner 3s either anymore and we can't get our passes to the corner without the D having great recovery. The lack of shooting is killing our spacing. 

Murray's presence doesn't make him redundant. It makes him irrelevant. 

His touches is at Kevin level in Atlanta. He's not getting into rhythm. He's struggling because of this on offense. 

I don't like his fit anymore on this team and it's not his fault. Atlanta made a major change adding Murray which I said at the time wasn't a perfect fit, it was SGA and now SGA looks like a superstar. Murray just doesn't shoot well. He's has limited range and he's not the assassin that DeRozan is in the mid range. He's still very critical for defense and playmaking reasons tho. He is an excellent player and I would max him.

 

[Spud2nique]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Lauri

Randle plus 1st round picks

Cam Johnson

AD

Lauri and Cam (not not Reddi… my bad us) but NO RANDLE EVERRRR!!! And AD primadona always hurt

[ShooterSays]

I've seen this trailer a few times; it sucks and the movie never actually comes out.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[terrell]

14 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

JC defense has been good, probably the best its been but not that good. 

He still struggles against size + talent. He doesn't guard Giannis or any very good PF well and he's doesn't have the same impact with OO or JJ that he had with Gallo. More than anything, we are just too small on defense, I know JJ,  Crowder, or Cam Johnson doesn't change that either, they aren't making 125 million. Who else can we replace? Capela? Why would we replace a top 3 defensive center and get better doing it. 

Offensively, that's not his fault, his impact died the minute Murray came. He gets limited touches and both Murray and Trae prefer Capela and even OO screens to JC. Hell, we running wing actions for JC just to get touches. He's the odd man out. Last year, it was either Bogi or Kevin. This year, it's JC. He's good. Hell, I really like him even if it seems I'm a hater but when we got Murray, it was the death of JC in Atlanta. He's still a good player. Damn good I should add and better than Kevin. The lack of spacing really hurts JC probably more than anyone outside of Trae. 

At this point, I'd settle for a first round draft pick and rotational pieces(Crowder,Saric,,filler) for JC.  If you can get more draft capital, that would benefit the cap situation, IMO....

[NBASupes]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

Lauri and Cam (not not Reddi… my bad us) but NO RANDLE EVERRRR!!! And AD primadona always hurt

Randle is tough one for me. He can hurt us and be mad about touches. But he can be an elite 6th which we are greatly lacking. If we land him, I don't see him working as a starter but being elite as a 6th man and that's something that would help us a lot. On top of that, I think Randle would cost NY a 1st as well so we can come out well from that deal if we have a good plan in place for Randle.

[Spud2nique]

JC came too late for his time. He shoulda been around a decade and a half ago when we was “the highlight factory “, he woulda fit right in wit Smoove and others… better PF’s out there that shoot treys better and with a quicker release for a lot less money. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, terrell said:

At this point, I'd settle for a first round draft pick and rotational pieces(Crowder,Saric,,filler) for JC.  If you can get more draft capital, that would benefit the cap situation, IMO....

I would fire you. The Kevin trade is the last time I ever want to see us get worse just to get cost down trade again. f*** that. Crowder is not good. He's mid and just a backup. Saric is one too. The 1st is mid. f*** that! Give me someone who makes us better in some shape. At least Cam Johnson spaces the floor, moves off the ball well and is an elite knockdown 3 point shooter. That opens the court for Trae and Murray.

[terrell]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I would fire you. The Kevin trade is the last time I ever want to see us get worse just to get cost down trade again. f*** that. Crowder is not good. He's mid and just a backup. Saric is one too. The 1st is mid. f*** that! Give me someone who makes us better in some shape. At least Cam Johnson spaces the floor, moves off the ball well and is an elite knockdown 3 point shooter. That opens the court for Trae and Murray.

Well yeah if they want to move Johnson that is..They didnt re-sign him so perhaps it's possible.. But I doubt it..