Haynes: Rival executives are of belief Hawks guard Trae Young could be next star player to request trade if team doesn’t make inroads come playoff time.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Capela probably more of a tight end than a defensive end

 

LOL . . nice.

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

To me, all of these issues aren't an indication that Trae Young is hard to build around.  The biggest thing with Trae, are his shot selection and his turnovers, specifically turnovers that can quickly go the other way and be turned into points.  And shot selection pertains to the type of shots in which he's rushing to get it off, or taking very difficult shots.  Not the open 32 foot shots that people hate, but he actually makes.

Then again, it's not like we're trying to construct an offense that see Trae get the ball coming off of a screen or in different areas of the court.

 

To me, building around Trae is easy.  And we've done it before.

• 2nd ball handler on the floor that can get his own shot
• 3 and D player who can make a 3, and put the ball on the floor
• 4-man who can defend and get his own offense ( or make the 3 )
• 5-man who can rim protect, roll to the basket, and set solid screens to free Trae for open layups

Our fan base really underestimated Gallo's ability to not only make a 3, but to create his own shot.  If Collins had Gallo's offensive arsenal, he'd be an all-star player.  Gallo could shoot, post up, and draw fouls.

 

 

So that brings us to the REAL QUESTION . . . 

Who outside of Trae, is a player that some would consider an all-star caliber player?  

I think Capela's defensive impact is all-star caliber.  I think Dejounte, at times, plays at an all-star caliber level. But who else?  Bogi's shooting, when on, is a game changer. But is Bogi better than Tyler Herro?  Is Capela better than Jared Allen?  Is Dejounte better than Jalen Brunson?

The true championship level teams have at least 2 guys playing at all-star level on almost a nightly basis.  And you need one of those players playing at at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA level.  With Trae's shooting struggles, he won't get that recognition.

So we are what we are folks.  I think we can play much better basketball for 48 minutes, with the personnel we have.  But do we need a tweak in the lineup or added personnel?  Do we need a coaching change?  Do we need to deal 1 player off the team?  The answers to all of those questions may be YES, at some point in the season.

But as of right now, we have no choice but to see if these guys can play through it, get healthy, and figure things out.

 

You always come with the gems dude...

Trae is not hard to build around.  That's the silliest most hater-ish thing I've ever heard.  First of all, point guard is a ball dominant position by default.  WTF are we even talking about?  Is it this "the game has changed" or "position-less basketball" thing people keep going on about?  Is it the Golden State Globetrotters that everyone thinks we can magically imitate?

Secondly, there's different types of ball dominant players.  Trae is not a black hole.  He is literally drawing the defense and finding guys all over the court.  He's not a combo guard racking up assists from collateral passes.  He has outstanding court vision, insane passing skills, and he's feeding guys.  Why are we talking about him like he's a selfish, black hole, volume shooting chucker? 

His problem on offense is LITERALLY this:

Quote

The biggest thing with Trae, are his shot selection [...] And shot selection pertains to the type of shots in which he's rushing to get it off, or taking very difficult shots. 

This isn't something he has to work on or add to his game.  He simply has to stop doing it.  Imagine the spike in his numbers without the ball pounding, contested, step back 3s.  Imagine our shooters consistently converting on CNS off his dribble penetration.  Imagine if we had a low post threat that could pass out?  Building around him is no more difficult than building around LeBron...but shooters are NECCESSARY.  Ball movement IS NECCESSARY. 

Go back and watch the ECF run.  Trae was the reason for the season, but timely 3 point shooting was the difference.  They are going to clog the lane the same way they do it to LeBron.  We need shooters (with ball movement) to beat the zone or a low post threat that can pass out - one of the two and right now, we are hacking at it with isolation. 

Now that I've seen enough of AJ, between him and Bogi...we might have enough shooting.  I'll take it a step further and say that I think we have a squad capable of a deep playoff run.  In all of these games, you see us manhandle teams or storm back from really big deficits.  That's not the mark of a team without talent...that's just focus, execution, and the offensive system.

[AHF]

55 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

When you talk about guys like Harden, Westbrook, Trae, and Luka, is it on them that no one has stepped up to be the 2nd guy on the team that can play at top level.  Or is it on the organization for not bringing in a guy who could play at top level?

For example, who is the best player that Trae has ever played with?  Matter of fact, I may create a poll right quick, asking that question.

How about Harden in Houston?  We know he played with Durant and Westbrook in OKC, and they made it to the NBA Finals.  But post Durant, was Westbrook in 2018 the best player Harden ever played with in Houston?  Was it Chris Paul?  I'll list the 2nd and 3rd top scorer on those Rockets teams, so people can evaluate if the Rockets had enough talent to win.

• 2013
  • Chandler Parsons ( 15.5 ) - Jeremy Lin ( 13.4 ) 
• 2014
  • Dwight Howard ( 18.4 ) - Chandler Parsons ( 16.6 )
• 2015 
  • Dwight Howard ( 15.8 ) - Trevor Ariza ( 12.0 ) - Josh Smith ( 12.0 )
  • this team got to the WC Finals
• 2016
  • Dwight Howard ( 13.7 ) - Trevor Ariza ( 12.7 )
• 2017
  • Eric Gordon ( 16.2 ) - Lou Williams ( 14.9 )
• 2018
  • Chris Paul ( 18.6 ) - Eric Gordon ( 18.0 )
• 2019
  • Clint Capela ( 16.6 ) - Eric Gordon ( 16.2 )
• 2020
  • Russell Westbrook ( 27.2 ) - Eric Gordon ( 14.4 )

 

I think out of this entire list, only Dwight Howard made an All-Star team.  I believe Chris Paul was hurt.

So how was James Harden supposed to win, when those are his 2nd and 3rd offensive options?

With the last 2 teams he's been on ( Brooklyn and Philly ), lack of talent of his teammates can't be used any more. It's now more about HIS talent possibly going into decline.

I think a guy like Harden maximized what was given to him.  And I believe that Trae does the same thing.

I differentiate between Trae, Harden and Luka versus AI and Westbrook.  The build problem with AI and Westbrook is both of them put up a ton of shots are well below league average efficiency.  That makes it hard to build around.  Trae, Harden and Luka have all been well above league average efficiency so it does not present the same challenge to build an effective offense as the other two.  

You do need to have the right full team to get there and these guys didn't (add Chris Paul, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, and many, many others to this list).  A guy like the Big O (Oscar) didn't win a title until he was well past his prime and hooked up with MVP talent Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.  Was he holding his team back previously?  I don't think so.  But he needed to pair up with another no-brainer HOF talent to get over the hump.  This could have been true of LeBron had he stayed in Cleveland and just continued to build organically.  He teamed up with two HOF talents in Miami, waited until Cleveland had like a half dozen lottery picks added to the team, and then leveraged those higher talent bases to titles.  (Same with pairing up with AD in LA.  When healthy, AD is a HOFer.  Health is his obvious issue, not talent.)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

If Trae leaves I’d have to end my 37 year fanhood. I’d finally realize the Hawks don’t want it. Trae is the one. The end.

 

I don't know about ending my fanhood, but it would definitely reduce my interest in the team, unless we got an equal or greater piece back.  I went through 31 years of hell with the Bengals, so the issues with the Hawks are child's play, compared to what they went through.

But for the first time in a long time, I can happily root for my favorite NFL and NBA teams, and have superstars on both squads that I can unconditionally support.  If Trae can put it all together, and 2 other people on this team can ascend like he did, that's when we'll be able to contend for a title.

 

[Wretch]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I differentiate between Trae, Harden and Luka versus AI and Westbrook.  The build problem with AI and Westbrook is both of them put up a ton of shots are well below league average efficiency.  That makes it hard to build around.  Trae, Harden and Luka have all been well above league average efficiency so it does not present the same challenge to build an effective offense as the other two.  

[bleachkit]

53 minutes ago, AHF said:

I differentiate between Trae, Harden and Luka versus AI and Westbrook.  The build problem with AI and Westbrook is both of them put up a ton of shots are well below league average efficiency.  That makes it hard to build around.  Trae, Harden and Luka have all been well above league average efficiency so it does not present the same challenge to build an effective offense as the other two.  

You do need to have the right full team to get there and these guys didn't (add Chris Paul, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, and many, many others to this list).  A guy like the Big O (Oscar) didn't win a title until he was well past his prime and hooked up with MVP talent Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.  Was he holding his team back previously?  I don't think so.  But he needed to pair up with another no-brainer HOF talent to get over the hump.  This could have been true of LeBron had he stayed in Cleveland and just continued to build organically.  He teamed up with two HOF talents in Miami, waited until Cleveland had like a half dozen lottery picks added to the team, and then leveraged those higher talent bases to titles.  (Same with pairing up with AD in LA.  When healthy, AD is a HOFer.  Health is his obvious issue, not talent.)

Not to be Debbie Downer, but Trae's current .549 TS% is below league average and we are only 9 games away from the half way point in the season.

[kg01]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

To me, all of these issues aren't an indication that Trae Young is hard to build around.  The biggest thing with Trae, are his shot selection and his turnovers, specifically turnovers that can quickly go the other way and be turned into points.  And shot selection pertains to the type of shots in which he's rushing to get it off, or taking very difficult shots.  Not the open 32 foot shots that people hate, but he actually makes.

Then again, it's not like we're trying to construct an offense that see Trae get the ball coming off of a screen or in different areas of the court.

 

To me, building around Trae is easy.  And we've done it before.

• 2nd ball handler on the floor that can get his own shot
• 3 and D player who can make a 3, and put the ball on the floor
• 4-man who can defend and get his own offense ( or make the 3 )
• 5-man who can rim protect, roll to the basket, and set solid screens to free Trae for open layups

Our fan base really underestimated Gallo's ability to not only make a 3, but to create his own shot.  If Collins had Gallo's offensive arsenal, he'd be an all-star player.  Gallo could shoot, post up, and draw fouls.

 

 

So that brings us to the REAL QUESTION . . . 

Who outside of Trae, is a player that some would consider an all-star caliber player?  

I think Capela's defensive impact is all-star caliber.  I think Dejounte, at times, plays at an all-star caliber level. But who else?  Bogi's shooting, when on, is a game changer. But is Bogi better than Tyler Herro?  Is Capela better than Jared Allen?  Is Dejounte better than Jalen Brunson?

The true championship level teams have at least 2 guys playing at all-star level on almost a nightly basis.  And you need one of those players playing at at least a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA level.  With Trae's shooting struggles, he won't get that recognition.

So we are what we are folks.  I think we can play much better basketball for 48 minutes, with the personnel we have.  But do we need a tweak in the lineup or added personnel?  Do we need a coaching change?  Do we need to deal 1 player off the team?  The answers to all of those questions may be YES, at some point in the season.

But as of right now, we have no choice but to see if these guys can play through it, get healthy, and figure things out.

 

You lockin up that #2 spot on the best posters list.  #1 is obvious, obviously. 

I honestly believe if we just play ball, we'll be fine.  Even if we keep iRobot.  Get a few wins, turn down the temp.  Let the gelling process continue.  We've panicked after the inevitable growing pains.  The weak early schedule masked clear issues.

[JTB]

I don’t think it’s hard to build around Trae . I do think our front office and particularly Schlenk tried to turn him into the next Curry and he’s not that guy.

I agree with much of what supes posted but I know we aren’t getting KAT so I’d rather a more realistic approach and revisit the Ayton trade as that would give Trae a scoring big man. 
Trae plays so much through the center I know for a fact that  Ayton would do great with Trae. Put OO at the 4 and I believe he’ll give us the same if not better defensive potential as Collins but at half the cost.

 

we should keep Murray and have Griffin backup as our 6th man .

 

Trae, Murray, Hunter, OO, Ayton lineup would maximize the offense to elite status while having a solid defense. The FO can then have a solid potential big 3 to build around Trae, Murray, Ayton as they would be the foundation.

[terrell]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I stopped watching this team weeks ago, I just read on them these days and I see the board still saying everything that I've stated already over a month ago. 

Fit ain't there. 

Murray trade has helped us but hurt us in terms of scoring. 

Bogi did help but his flaws on defense when it's crunch time erases his good impact which was even worse for Kevin last year. 

It's gonna be hard to win around Trae. He needs the rock almost religiously and he can't play without it. It's not about effort, he just don't got no tools off the ball which also shows up on defense which we already KNEW this but we got too many fools on here and in the organization who would blame other players instead of accepting the fact that if Trae could do this, he would have BEEN doing this. Failure to the idiots in the organization who suggested Trae go workout with Steph Curry. It's had the same negative effect as Jayson Tatum seeing Kobe. 

Honestly, no one wants to listen to me which is odd because all I want it potential titles and contending status but if you want to win, it ain't that hard. 

Get Trae back into his role. You can't do that with Murray but Murray is so valuable, you really can't just let him go unless the value is massive which Murray's value is. 

Get KAT. He's a perfect offensive fit with Trae. He can draw a lot of defensive attention which means doubling Trae can be easily punished as we have someone down low who can punish you. 

He makes Okongwu optimal as a rim protecting 4 who can defend in space and finish around the rim. 

Hunter is Hunter. Nothing is changing. 

Griffin is obviously our SG of the future and Bogi is our SG for now. We can't win a title starting Bogi at all but with a lineup of 

Trae/Bogi/Hunter/OO/KAT - Gives us an elite offense with potential to play solid team defense. Obviously, we need a defensive upgrade at the 2 which Griffin will be in time. 

We need to make this damn team fit. It don't and they gonna continue playing .500 Basketball till they do. They will likely go on a 3 game winning streak soon and then lose 4 in a row as well. Streaky. This team reminds me so much of the Harden/Westbrook Rockets and like that team, I became so disinterested to an extreme degree. 

That said, I like a lot of the personnel on this squad. I do see a lot of value here moreso than previous years, hell, even last year, I like this personnel a lot more. They just don't fit. Last year, at least they did, just wasn't good enough. I think they are good enough now. 

"They dont fit". How long have I been saying this? 

[terrell]

54 minutes ago, JTB said:

I don’t think it’s hard to build around Trae . I do think our front office and particularly Schlenk tried to turn him into the next Curry and he’s not that guy.

I agree with much of what supes posted but I know we aren’t getting KAT so I’d rather a more realistic approach and revisit the Ayton trade as that would give Trae a scoring big man. 
Trae plays so much through the center I know for a fact that  Ayton would do great with Trae. Put OO at the 4 and I believe he’ll give us the same if not better defensive potential as Collins but at half the cost.

 

we should keep Murray and have Griffin backup as our 6th man .

 

Trae, Murray, Hunter, OO, Ayton lineup would maximize the offense to elite status while having a solid defense. The FO can then have a solid potential big 3 to build around Trae, Murray, Ayton as they would be the foundation.

Ayton is definitely getting traded.. Thats for sure.. 

JC and CC for Ayton and Crowder works salary wise..

Trae/DJM/Dre/OO/Ayton

DJM/Bogi/AJ/Crowder/OO

That team is kinda interesting.. But still lacks spacing for Trae/Murray. No real threat shooting at all in that lineup. Unless you replace Dre with AJ or Bogi. lol

It's more realistic than KAT getting moved though..

Edited December 23, 2022 by terrell

[NBASupes]

49 minutes ago, JTB said:

I don’t think it’s hard to build around Trae . I do think our front office and particularly Schlenk tried to turn him into the next Curry and he’s not that guy.

I agree with much of what supes posted but I know we aren’t getting KAT so I’d rather a more realistic approach and revisit the Ayton trade as that would give Trae a scoring big man. 
Trae plays so much through the center I know for a fact that  Ayton would do great with Trae. Put OO at the 4 and I believe he’ll give us the same if not better defensive potential as Collins but at half the cost.

 

we should keep Murray and have Griffin backup as our 6th man .

 

Trae, Murray, Hunter, OO, Ayton lineup would maximize the offense to elite status while having a solid defense. The FO can then have a solid potential big 3 to build around Trae, Murray, Ayton as they would be the foundation.

I definitely think Trae is very hard to build around. Can't run an offense, can't play in a system, can't play off the ball, WOAT defender. Yeah, he's hard to build around. That's a fact. 

I don't believe TS thought he was Steph at least after a year. They been getting players who they strongly think would fit well next to Trae. Hunter, OO, Griffin (him and Landry), and took some risk that didn't work Bruno and Cam but it didn't work. 

 

KAT is the most critical get to me. Gives us a #1 option with Trae being the #1 ball handler and playmaker. It just works for all parties, especially offensively. 

Ayton just isn't mentally there. If he was locked in, I would be all in, then again, he wouldn't be possible. I don't know if Trae wants someone that's not all in that he has to depend on. I do understand why you would want it, Ayton for Capela and Bogi but I don't know if it fixes things or makes things worse. The hope is that Ayton plays to his potential and becomes that #2 option star we hoped from with Murray but man, that's a massive ask when he has the same passion for the game that Marvin Williams had. Capela, for his severe limitations is locked in. 

PHX don't want JC but there are teams that want JC for spare parts. It's gonna cost us Bogi who is quite critical for us now that Kevin is gone. 

18 minutes ago, terrell said:

Ayton is definitely getting traded.. Thats for sure.. 

JC and CC for Ayton and Crowder works salary wise..

Trae/DJM/Dre/OO/Ayton

DJM/Bogi/AJ/Crowder/OO

That team is kinda interesting.. lol

They don't want JC but Capela been on their radar as has Bogi. So we can clearly do a trade with them for Ayton/Crowder. 

[bleachkit]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I definitely think Trae is very hard to build around. Can't run an offense, can't play in a system, can't play off the ball, WOAT defender. Yeah, he's hard to build around. That's a fact. 

I don't believe TS thought he was Steph at least after a year. They been getting players who they strongly think would fit well next to Trae. Hunter, OO, Griffin (him and Landry), and took some risk that didn't work Bruno and Cam but it didn't work. 

 

KAT is the most critical get to me. Gives us a #1 option with Trae being the #1 ball handler and playmaker. It just works for all parties, especially offensively. 

Ayton just isn't mentally there. If he was locked in, I would be all in, then again, he wouldn't be possible. I don't know if Trae wants someone that's not all in that he has to depend on. I do understand why you would want it, Ayton for Capela and Bogi but I don't know if it fixes things or makes things worse. The hope is that Ayton plays to his potential and becomes that #2 option star we hoped from with Murray but man, that's a massive ask when he has the same passion for the game that Marvin Williams had. Capela, for his severe limitations is locked in. 

PHX don't want JC but there are teams that want JC for spare parts. It's gonna cost us Bogi who is quite critical for us now that Kevin is gone. 

They don't want JC but Capela been on their radar as has Bogi. So we can clearly do a trade with them for Ayton/Crowder. 

How can anyone make the argument Trae is easy to build around? He's a ball dominant, small guard. Those type players are notoriously difficult to build around. It's a basic NBA truth. The incredulity of Trae-stans is astonishing. 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

How can anyone make the argument Trae is easy to build around? He's a ball dominant, small guard. Those type players are notoriously difficult to build around. It's a basic NBA truth. The incredulity of Trae-stans is astonishing. 

Trae stans love him and I understand why, his offensive abilities are insane, especially when his shot is falling and it's hard for them to see him as the problem when he has so much value but they underrate what he doesn't do well and blame others for it. 

[swanlee]

I'm done with this team for a long time if they trade Trae and then rebuild again. Not going through that again. If they blow this up I'm out

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, swanlee said:

I'm done with this team for a long time if they trade Trae and then rebuild again. Not going through that again. If they blow this up I'm out

My philosophy.. fool me once (Nique) that’s on you, twice (Trae) that’s on me.

 

Having said that, I love basketball. I wouldn’t be able to follow another team, seems I hate many of them.

College is different too I like the NBA game. 
 

I just wouldn’t understand it. You have a prime superstar and a top 10 player in the league as well as the best passer, and you would trade him?

Unless it’s Giannis, it makes zero sense. 
 

 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

How can anyone make the argument Trae is easy to build around? He's a ball dominant, small guard. Those type players are notoriously difficult to build around. It's a basic NBA truth. The incredulity of Trae-stans is astonishing. 

I wanna give you a like for the use of incredulity, but I won't because it's not hard to build around Trae.  It's just not 'in the box', so it befuddled folks that think they know everything about basketball.

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

befuddled

Collectively, as a squawk group, we’ve come along way! 
 

When I was a kid I thought the word was befundled.  

[OldTimeHawk]

I think we have the pieces Trae just needs to grow the f up and get better. Moving Trae does not mean rebuild in my opinion. It just means we either getting an asset back and the internal strife goes away or we get a future draft pick to replace him and the internal strife goes away. And more than likely the defensive liability that is T Young is replaced with someone that has the heart and desire to play defense. 

[kg01]

41 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Collectively, as a squawk group, we’ve come along way! 
 

When I was a kid I thought the word was befundled.  

Atleast you didn't think it was 'be fondled'.

[kg01]

36 minutes ago, OldTimeHawk said:

I think we have the pieces Trae just needs to grow the f up and get better. Moving Trae does not mean rebuild in my opinion. It just means we either getting an asset back and the internal strife goes away or we get a future draft pick to replace him and the internal strife goes away. And more than likely the defensive liability that is T Young is replaced with someone that has the heart and desire to play defense. 

How many nba players actually play defense with "heart and desire"?

Suggesting we can get a draft pick to "replace him" ignores literal decades of proof that's not possible.

And how do we know he's the one in the mix that needs to "grow up"?  Spoiler alert, we don't know.