Trae Young voted most overrated player in the NBA by his peers

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Collins should be that guy, but he does less the more talent you have. So, he really isn't that guy.

Collins does not have a strong handle or passing skills.

[Plainview1981]

53 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Collins does not have a strong handle or passing skills.

He really needs to go.

He is clearly mailing it in these days. Which hurts his trade value. Which makes it harder to get rid of him even though he wants to go.

You'd think he would want to play well so other teams would actually want him.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Plainview1981

[Final_quest]

Mr Overrated has possible become the only person to ever have 35 points, 15 assists, and 1 turnover in a playoff game.  Here is the list of 35+ points and 15+ assists:

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

Mr Overrated has possible become the only person to ever have 35 points, 15 assists, and 1 turnover in a playoff game.  Here is the list of 35+ points and 15+ assists:

Here is my frustration:

If Trae struggles on offense with efficiency, low points, few assists, lots of TOs (like he did vs MIA last year) - the cry is he isn't built for the playoffs.

If Trae has a decent game on offense, lots of assists, low TOs - it's empty stats.

He still have areas for improvement and leadership but good grief man.  

Seems like he's in a no win situation with some no matter what.

[cam1218]

7 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Mr Overrated has possible become the only person to ever have 35 points, 15 assists, and 1 turnover in a playoff game.  Here is the list of 35+ points and 15+ assists:

Yeah, but he has the lowest FG% of everyone on that list .

[Final_quest]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Here is my frustration:

If Trae struggles on offense with efficiency, low points, few assists, lots of TOs (like he did vs MIA last year) - the cry is he isn't built for the playoffs.

If Trae has a decent game on offense, lots of assists, low TOs - it's empty stats.

He still have areas for improvement and leadership but good grief man.  

Seems like he's in a no win situation with some no matter what.

Mentally I throw out that Miami series.  He was in a lose lose situation with so many guys injured plus the refs let Miami play physical every game.  It's too bad that series is gonna kill his overall playoff numbers until a few more years go by.  

A lot of his turnovers in general are from bad calls.  I'm sure his coaches all tell him to stay aggressive and live with a few turnovers. 
 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

2/91 is wild. 

Despite that he's still averaging 26.75 points and 7.5 freethrow attempts.

 

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Here is my frustration:

If Trae struggles on offense with efficiency, low points, few assists, lots of TOs (like he did vs MIA last year) - the cry is he isn't built for the playoffs.

If Trae has a decent game on offense, lots of assists, low TOs - it's empty stats.

He still have areas for improvement and leadership but good grief man.  

Seems like he's in a no win situation with some no matter what.

He had 35/15 and only 1 TO while playing hard on D last night and there's still folks trying to "get rid of him" in trades.

The bad gets crucified, the good gets minimized, and the elite gets used to bolster trade talk. At some point it's not Trae that's the problem, it's these fans. 

[hawkman]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

2/91 is wild. 

 

Trae will have an opportunity to start with a clean slate next season. I hope he understands that how he interacts with the officials doesn't just impact him but also the team. Hopefully Quin can get through to him on that and how to properly "work" the officials. That's a lesson he should've already learned after last season's Miami series.

[JTB]

9 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Trae will have an opportunity to start with a clean slate next season. I hope he understands that how he interacts with the officials doesn't just impact him but also the team. Hopefully Quin can get through to him on that and how to properly "work" the officials. That's a lesson he should've already learned after last season's Miami series.

Yup but Trae needs to understand the playoffs will not be called like the regular season and he also need to understand that his floater is his most valuable shot overall going forward.

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Trae will have an opportunity to start with a clean slate next season. I hope he understands that how he interacts with the officials doesn't just impact him but also the team. Hopefully Quin can through to him on that and how to properly "work" the officials. That's a lesson he should've already learned after last season's Miami series.

I think DJ may need to get that lecture as well after his stunt at the end of the last game.

[RedDawg#8]

Last time I checked, 98% of these refs will likely be back next season.

Very doubtful that they will magically forget whatever it is that they dislike about Trae in one offseason.

It will take an entirely new league agenda to filter down before they give Trae the same respect as his peers.

Narratives are bigger than the rules. Trae is a heel until otherwise stated.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Last time I checked, 98% of these refs will likely be back next season.

Very doubtful that they will magically forget whatever it is that they dislike about Trae in one offseason.

It will take an entirely new league agenda to filter down before they give Trae the same respect as his peers.

Narratives are bigger than the rules. Trae is a heel until otherwise stated.

I will say that Trae can help this out by reaching out to them and working not to show them up.  This isn't unique to him although I agree with you that there is some narrative in this given how so many others complain after every perceived foul and this isn't held against them.  But Trae needs to actively be part of the solution and Quin should be in a good position to help him manage this.

[benhillboy]

I was playing around on Statmuse.com and checked what the team winning %s are when an AS-level guard who’s still with the team who drafted him records 30 points and 10 assists (not sure if this includes playoffs as well)

La. Ball 2-0, 100% 

Curry 29-6; 82%

Doncic 36-15, 70%

Lilliard 32-14; 69%

Young 39-23, 62%

Fox 10-6, 62%

Beal 4-3, 57%

Booker 8-7, 53%

Morant 6-7, 46%

Haliburton 0-2, 0%

Murray 0-1, 0%

Trae obviously does it more that anyone else.  62% is good, but not great.  I think Curry has the team edge obviously due to superior range shooting efficiency.  Luka, Steph, and Melo are the best rebounders for their size/ position, Haliburton is awful.  Lilliard keeps turnovers to a minimum.  Ball and Steph are most likely to pile up steals.  None of these guys are notable defenders (Beal and Murray dreadful for their size) but Steph is easily the best having had a long stretch of positive defensive metrics, a steals crown, and impressive defense on LeBron in a  winning Finals series.

Edited April 24, 2023 by benhillboy

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

 I think Curry has the team edge obviously due to superior range shooting efficiency.  

Bear in mind that Curry had the bulk of those games later in his career when his teammates were steller and that this plays into the fact as well.  For example, Curry had 1 30/10 game in 2011.  0 in 2012.  0 in 2013.  

Then he jumps to 8 in 2014 when the Warriors are a team winning 51 games with Klay Thompson, Iggy, Barnes, Lee, Green, etc.  After that they were winning 67 games and ring the next season pretty much being one of the best teams in basketball year after year so you expect the team record in any circumstance to be pretty darn good.  

For example, the Warriors were elite in 2015-16.  They went 16-1 in any game where Steph scored 30 or more points so of course the ones where he also had 10 assists or more are going to look good.  They also went 8-0 in any game where Steph scored less than 14 points.  Because they were a 67 win team you expect any slice of that stat data to look pretty good.  

When you are pulling Trae's data, you are including plenty of games from the tanking years when you can expect things to look pretty bad.  

The Hawks won 28 games his rookie year.  Trae had 7 30/10 games that year.  The Hawks won 20 games his second year.  He had 16 30/10 games that year.  Over those two seasons, the team went 12-11 in his 30/10 games.  That is a winning % of just over 52% at a time when the team had an overall record of winning % of less than 33%.  

So I think you have to do some contextualizing.  Obviously, Curry's great shooting efficiency is a big part of the reason for the Warriors success but when they can go 8-0 when he scores less than 14 points that speaks to a resiliency that Trae hasn't ever enjoyed.  The Hawks are 0-5 when Trae scores less than 14 points the last two years.

[benhillboy]

Addendum for guys who’ve bounced around but still HOFers:

CP3 29-12, 70%

Harden 73-28, 70%

Westbrook 60-24, 71%

Surprised Westbrook’s was that high.

[benhillboy]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

Bear in mind that Curry had the bulk of those games later in his career when his teammates were steller and that this plays into the fact as well.  For example, Curry had 1 30/10 game in 2011.  0 in 2012.  0 in 2013.  

Then he jumps to 8 in 2014 when the Warriors are a team winning 51 games with Klay Thompson, Iggy, Barnes, Lee, Green, etc.  After that they were winning 67 games and ring the next season pretty much being one of the best teams in basketball year after year so you expect the team record in any circumstance to be pretty darn good.  

For example, the Warriors were elite in 2015-16.  They went 16-1 in any game where Steph scored 30 or more points so of course the ones where he also had 10 assists or more are going to look good.  They also went 8-0 in any game where Steph scored less than 14 points.  Because they were a 67 win team you expect any slice of that stat data to look pretty good.  

When you are pulling Trae's data, you are including plenty of games from the tanking years when you can expect things to look pretty bad.  

The Hawks won 28 games his rookie year.  Trae had 7 30/10 games that year.  The Hawks won 20 games his second year.  He had 16 30/10 games that year.  Over those two seasons, the team went 12-11 in his 30/10 games.  That is a winning % of just over 52% at a time when the team had an overall record of winning % of less than 33%.  

So I think you have to do some contextualizing.  Obviously, Curry's great shooting efficiency is a big part of the reason for the Warriors success but when they can go 8-0 when he scores less than 14 points that speaks to a resiliency that Trae hasn't ever enjoyed.  The Hawks are 0-5 when Trae scores less than 14 points the last two years.

I can feel all of that.  I do take context into account although you may not think I do lol.  Point is all of these guys influenced team build greatly.

Draymond and Klay, as awesome as they are, have presented coaching issues their whole career (undersized and horrible shooting for Dray, horrible rebounding for Klay who just became a solid playmaker recently). By the same token you can say Trae wouldn’t blow everyone else out of the water in number of games with 30 and 10 without the collection of screeners, rollers, and shooters that have been assembled around him.  All these guys were drafted by bad/ tanking squads.  After they were drafted the build started from the same relative places.

I know Steph better than anyone, he much rather post 24 points on mediocre volume/ high efficiency/7 rebounds /5 assists/ 2 steals/ 1 block and run the defense ragged off the ball for his mates than 30/10/4/0/0 any day.

Edited April 25, 2023 by benhillboy

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

2/91 is wild. 

Despite that he's still averaging 26.75 points and 7.5 freethrow attempts.

 

This is why I don’t think talking about our lack of calls is whining.  He also probably leads the league in lack of continuation calls.  

If he was a Laker they would call him All NBA and fawn over him.  

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[bleachkit]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

2/91 is wild. 

Despite that he's still averaging 26.75 points and 7.5 freethrow attempts.

 

This confirms a concern I've had about Trae that has been largely ignored. It's tough to get foul calls in the playoffs. Refs intentionally swallow their whistle in the playoffs, and for a player like Trae, that alters the complexion of the game.