Early (but not too early) 2023 off-season wishlist

[REHawksFan]

Just now, Final_quest said:

While we are focused on Collins, I really wonder if the FO is looking to primarily trade Capela.  Quin was not going to say negative things about players, and I'm looking at our actions to do the talking.  If Quin values Collins, I'm guessing he stays.    

I think what we saw in the last couple of games of the playoffs shows that JC can be a productive offensive piece if he's in the right lineups.  And that means ones without Clint.  I tend to think it's going to be easier to improve the roster with JC staying than with Clint staying.  

[sturt]

13 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I really wonder if the FO is looking to primarily trade Capela.

See, I think it works the other way around.

I don't think Quin and the FO are going to be looking to trade anyone in the rotation. I'm not persuaded that they consider any specific player someone they must move.

Rather, I believe they are going to be looking for clear upgrades. If a deal arises where that's the case, then they'll pursue it; and if not, they're not going to be interested in exchanging approximately equivalent assets talent-wise... change mainly for change' sake.

The only monkey wrench in that theory is payroll... and if, as some would contend, Ressler says what he wants everyone to think but that the reality is his words are not to be trusted, that is the viable consideration that could end up pushing someone like JC or CC to another team. And, then, it would mainly be a matter of which of our assets brings back the most talent for the best possible payroll impact.

[sturt]

11 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

JC can be a productive offensive piece if he's in the right lineups.  And that means ones without Clint.

 

[Spud2nique]

58 minutes ago, kg01 said:

This makes us melted butter soft

I thought you’d like that? 

[terrell]

On 4/30/2023 at 11:52 PM, JTB said:

Other than Ayton….I wouldn’t mind the possibility of getting Portzingis.

im sure I’m misspelled his name but you guys know who I’m referring to. Kristaps had his best nba season this year and was actually good defensively around the goal.

Ayton is definitely out n Phoenix..

Landale was more effective than that chump.. lol

 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

I thought you’d like that? 

That frontcourt would make marshmallows look like concrete.

[sturt]

59 minutes ago, terrell said:

Ayton is definitely out n Phoenix..

Landale was more effective than that chump.. lol

 

Opportunity knocks!!!

[REHawksFan]

9 hours ago, sturt said:

 

I'll have to think this through when I have more time, but I'm not sure that 2man lineup data disproves my assertion. 

To be more clear, I'm asserting that JC would be the best version of himself offensively if playing with another player that isn't Clint.

I'm not saying that the combination of Clint and JC has been a total failure or that the Hawks haven't been productive overall when they are on the court together. Just that JC isn't as productive as he othwrwise could be when he's playing with Clint. 

[sturt]

14 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I'll have to think this through when I have more time, but I'm not sure that 2man lineup data disproves my assertion. 

To be more clear, I'm asserting that JC would be the best version of himself offensively if playing with another player that isn't Clint.

I'm not saying that the combination of Clint and JC has been a total failure or that the Hawks haven't been productive overall when they are on the court together. Just that JC isn't as productive as he othwrwise could be when he's playing with Clint. 

That's a fair discussion, and yes, a different one than prompted my posts here (, as you've suggested).

[JustSomeGuy]

Reality is, I think it’s more practical to trade CC because he’s probably more valued right now. But it also makes us significantly worse. 

[Phunkabilly]

19 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

There’s a lot of debate on whether to keep Collins or not and most of the reasons center on him being likable or a leader or make excuses for his lack of production. Reality is, while he’s young, he’s just overpaid, underproducing, injury prone, and getting worse every year. 

The debate on whether to keep him when coupled with this reality is based more on sentiment than production.

Collins is what he is. A scheme limited PNR 4 who can occasionally step out to 3 and a be good help defender. He’s a declining rebounder, not a true stretch 4, can’t create off the dribble (although he’s gotten better) can’t score on smaller guys consistently in the post and isn’t strong enough to consistently hold up as a post defender to ever be a small ball 5. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have value, just not for this team or this system. Cut bait. 

if you don’t like Harrison Barnes that’s fine. He was awful in that finals series but has been a winning player in his career, is a solid perimeter defender, and fits our team needs better than Collins. I also like Trey Lyles as a guy with plus upside.

I gotta admit that statement right there kinda grinds my gears.  What 25 year old man "is what he is"??  Collins' game has changed a ton since coming into the league (some parts good, some not so good), and he continues to evolve... he most definitely is not a finished product.  If he can get back to his 2019-20 self, or at least close to it, then I think he'll be an extremely useful piece to this team, and certainly worth his salary.  His 38% 3pt shooting since the all-star break (credit to @sturt for pointing that out) lends hope that he can get back to that level of production.  Personally, I am really eager to see what Quin and his new staff can do with John's game.  John has talent and seemingly a good attitude and work ethic... those traits combined with the focus on player development that our front office and coaching staff now has, I think we'll see a much improved Collins next year.

[Final_quest]

17 hours ago, sturt said:

The only monkey wrench in that theory is payroll... and if, as some would contend, Ressler says what he wants everyone to think but that the reality is his words are not to be trusted, that is the viable consideration that could end up pushing someone like JC or CC to another team. And, then, it would mainly be a matter of which of our assets brings back the most talent for the best possible payroll impact.

Payroll is definitely a factor.  Even teams that are big spenders have to consider payroll.  But teams shop specific players all the time. 

In this case you have Okongwu who most likely is considered the center of the future, and is also due a raise.  When you have two players that are both starter quality, it's not always viable to keep both of them.  The players themselves probably both want to play a starter role and starter minutes. If we wait a couple years to trade Capela, he may have zero value due to age and injuries. 

I see a lot of viable reasons that we would be proactive in shopping Capela, but to your point they may only make a move if we get fair value in return.  When we shopped Cam I think the story was we traded him to the first team that offered a decent 1st round pick.  He was only going to get moved when we got the offer we wanted.  

[JTB]

6 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I'll have to think this through when I have more time, but I'm not sure that 2man lineup data disproves my assertion. 

To be more clear, I'm asserting that JC would be the best version of himself offensively if playing with another player that isn't Clint.

I'm not saying that the combination of Clint and JC has been a total failure or that the Hawks haven't been productive overall when they are on the court together. Just that JC isn't as productive as he othwrwise could be when he's playing with Clint. 

I have accepted this. To see the best version of Collins you can’t play him with Capela. So the question is who do we bring in to take capelas spot?

4 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

Reality is, I think it’s more practical to trade CC because he’s probably more valued right now. But it also makes us significantly worse. 

This is the other issue. Capela has a lot worth in areas Collins don’t . I agree Collins can be a way better offensive player if Capela is not his way but how impactful is capelas presence to us actually winning games vs Collins getting the opportunity to display all his offensive weapons?

[JTB]

7 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Payroll is definitely a factor.  Even teams that are big spenders have to consider payroll.  But teams shop specific players all the time. 

In this case you have Okongwu who most likely is considered the center of the future, and is also due a raise.  When you have two players that are both starter quality, it's not always viable to keep both of them.  The players themselves probably both want to play a starter role and starter minutes. If we wait a couple years to trade Capela, he may have zero value due to age and injuries. 

I see a lot of viable reasons that we would be proactive in shopping Capela, but to your point they may only make a move if we get fair value in return.  When we shopped Cam I think the story was we traded him to the first team that offered a decent 1st round pick.  He was only going to get moved when we got the offer we wanted.  

If we can trade Capela to a team like the rockets or OKC who can just take on his contract …for little to nothing in return to us then that could free up enough cap to sign Vucevic possibly.

[Final_quest]

8 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I'll have to think this through when I have more time, but I'm not sure that 2man lineup data disproves my assertion. 

To be more clear, I'm asserting that JC would be the best version of himself offensively if playing with another player that isn't Clint.

I'm not saying that the combination of Clint and JC has been a total failure or that the Hawks haven't been productive overall when they are on the court together. Just that JC isn't as productive as he othwrwise could be when he's playing with Clint. 

We are not in an easy place right now.  Collins and Capela provide defense and rebounding that keep us from being an abysmal team on defense.  Unfortunately we have to accept that even though Murray was brought in for perimeter defense, he is not actually providing that at the level we hoped.  

Even though Capela limits Collins effectiveness on offense, I think the reason they are a net positive as a tandem is the defense they provide.  That's why we are in a pretty tricky spot this offseason.  We seem committed to players that provide a less than stellar perimeter defense, and most rumors suggest we want to move on from some of our best defenders while wanting to upgrade those positions at the same time.  Obviously if we can land Embiid, it solves all of those problems.  

[Final_quest]

2 minutes ago, JTB said:

If we can trade Capela to a team like the rockets or OKC who can just take on his contract …for little to nothing in return to us then that could free up enough cap to sign Vucevic possibly.

Even if we move Capela for a pick and they absorb his contract, we would still not have space to sign a free agent.  It's pretty much trades and things like MLE that are designed for capped out teams.  There's not really a viable way to get under the cap to sign free agents.  

[JTB]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

Even if we move Capela for a pick and they absorb his contract, we would still not have space to sign a free agent.  It's pretty much trades and things like MLE that are designed for capped out teams.  There's not really a viable way to get under the cap to sign free agents.  

Gotcha so sign and trade is our only way for true upgrades/changes.

[JayBirdHawk]

34 minutes ago, JTB said:

If we can trade Capela to a team like the rockets or OKC who can just take on his contract …for little to nothing in return to us then that could free up enough cap to sign Vucevic possibly.

It will have to be a SnT. Salary cap will be $134 mil. Hawks have $174 mil in salary, trading Capela for no salary back brings that to $153 so we have no avaliable cap space to sign a free agent.  Also with the new CBA, we'd need to get under the LT of $162 before the trade. SnT trade deals by an over the tax team sets a hard cap making it difficult to make other deals.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Payroll is definitely a factor.  Even teams that are big spenders have to consider payroll.  But teams shop specific players all the time. 

In this case you have Okongwu who most likely is considered the center of the future, and is also due a raise.  When you have two players that are both starter quality, it's not always viable to keep both of them.  The players themselves probably both want to play a starter role and starter minutes. If we wait a couple years to trade Capela, he may have zero value due to age and injuries. 

I see a lot of viable reasons that we would be proactive in shopping Capela, but to your point they may only make a move if we get fair value in return.  When we shopped Cam I think the story was we traded him to the first team that offered a decent 1st round pick.  He was only going to get moved when we got the offer we wanted.  

My Spidey sense is that @LongTimeFan has it right...

 

... ie, in effect, by this time next year, there will either have been clear and compelling reason to consider this team as having evolved into a serious title contender ahead of the February deadline, or at least one of the double-digit salaries on the current roster will have been moved.

 

[Final_quest]

3 minutes ago, sturt said:

My Spidey sense is that @LongTimeFan has it right...

 

... ie, in effect, by this time next year, there will either have been clear and compelling reason to consider this team as having evolved into a serious title contender ahead of the February deadline, or at least one of the double-digit salaries on the current roster will have been moved.

 

What we think the FO should do is different from what we think their intention is.  I think their intention is to move at least Capela, but maybe Collins as well.  We could end up in a situation like the trade deadline where the goal was to move Collins and they punted when Phoenix backed out of the deal.  Or at least that's what our insiders said happened.  

My own view on what we should do is pretty close to what you and LTF are saying, but maybe I'm saying the same thing in a different way.  Be aggressive in working on a move to upgrade the roster, but cautious towards making a move you will regret.  However, even if we would like to take time and give room for internal improvements, the payroll makes it difficult to take that approach.