John Collins Traded - Fare thee well!

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Everyone was like "His defense sucks." No one wanted that deal at the time. 

Up until that point, they weren't so different offensively either.  Coming into last season, Lauri hadn't average 15 or more points over the prior 3 seasons.  JC hadn't averaged less than 15 points in his prior 4 seasons and was about 4 ppg higher than Lauri.

Lauri had shot 34.4% and 35.8% from 3 in two of those 3 prior seasons compared to JC who shot 40% twice and 36.4% once. 

Lauri had 8.4 OWS over his 5 seasons compared to 20.6 OWS for JC over those same 5 seasons.

And, as you mention, JC was the better defender career to date.

Every other stat favored JC too - ~20 PER for JC vs ~16 PER for Lauri, etc.

Their change in value was all about what they did last season where Lauri not only put up all career highs but dramatically so (example: 25.6 PPG over prior season's 14.8 PPG).  Conversely, JC put up career lows in just about everything (or at least lows in his non-rookie years).  No doubt Lauri is at a new career high in value while JC is at his lowest point.  

[terrell]

34 minutes ago, Watchman said:

I look forward to watching JJ shut down Siakam, Randle and Giannis.  

Meh. Dre and OO will be fine guarding those guys..

JJ will get his chance to shine though.. Thanks to no JC in the way

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by terrell

[Atlantaholic]

31 minutes ago, Packfill said:

I generally agree, but still think someone will give him at least $15m a year and losing him for nothing doesn't help fill out the roster (which will be more challenging going forward due to the limited number of picks the team has over the next few years).

We can't afford to pay our 5th,6th option guys I don't think. Bey will need to be replaced by one of our players on a rookie contract.

[terrell]

27 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There were a few

 I’m fine using Gay, the 2nd, and the trade exception in another deal. lol

With a center like KAT or Ayton, I would love that.

If we get Ayton or KAT then I take back everything bad I said about this deal.

I am trying to guess next move if there is any. Could be possible we go after Cam Johnson or Jeramy Grant? I think Johnson would be an awesome addition but I don’t think we can get him, Grant I don’t like his fit with our team.

Yeah I said those EXACT words the other day about using Gay and the exception in another deal..I could see Quin liking someone like DFS or Royce ONeal for us.... 

Dre will also play some 4(if hes still around). Along with Bey and JJ..

And Gay played over 1000 min for Quin in 2021. Just sayin.. lol

Edited June 27, 2023 by terrell

[KB21]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

Up until that point, they weren't so different offensively either.  Coming into last season, Lauri hadn't average 15 or more points over the prior 3 seasons.  JC hadn't averaged less than 15 points in his prior 4 seasons and was about 4 ppg higher than Lauri.

Lauri had shot 34.4% and 35.8% from 3 in two of those 3 prior seasons compared to JC who shot 40% twice and 36.4% once. 

Lauri had 8.4 OWS over his 5 seasons compared to 20.6 OWS for JC over those same 5 seasons.

And, as you mention, JC was the better defender career to date.

Every other stat favored JC too - ~20 PER for JC vs ~16 PER for Lauri, etc.

Their change in value was all about what they did last season where Lauri not only put up all career highs but dramatically so (example: 25.6 PPG over prior season's 14.8 PPG).  Conversely, JC put up career lows in just about everything (or at least lows in his non-rookie years).  No doubt Lauri is at a new career high in value while JC is at his lowest point.  

Coaching makes a difference.

[AHF]

Just now, KB21 said:

Coaching makes a difference.

As does health and role.  All of those were factors.

I think JC is much closer to a 20/10 player if he is your primarily role man and your team's best rebounder instead of being a relative afterthought in both areas.

[JayBirdHawk]

56 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There were a few

 I’m fine using Gay, the 2nd, and the trade exception in another deal. lol

With a center like KAT or Ayton, I would love that.

If we get Ayton or KAT then I take back everything bad I said about this deal.

I am trying to guess next move if there is any. Could be possible we go after Cam Johnson or Jeramy Grant? I think Johnson would be an awesome addition but I don’t think we can get him, Grant I don’t like his fit with our team.

1. Can't combine the TPE with players.

2. Can't use the TPE to sign FAs, will need to be a SnT and the other team will want assets from us.

3. CamJ is looking for $25 per, Grant is looking at $30 per.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

1. Can't combine the TPE with players.

2. Can't use the TPE to sign FAs, will need to be a SnT and the other team will want assets from us.

3. CamJ is looking for $25 per, Grant is looking at $30 per.

Really the MLE is what we have to sign FAs.

[AUhawksfan]

3 hours ago, bleachkit said:

It's been widely reported that Schlenk's attempts to trade JC were nixed by ownership. The man wasn't given a chance to do his job.

Fair enough, I honestly haven't had the time to keep up on all the info here with my busy schedule so if that's true then there you go.  I appreciate you saving me from parsing through all of this.

[AUhawksfan]

3 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

You still think it was about John's value?  This was a salary dumb plain and simple.  I know all went to bed last night dreaming of Hawks bring all of these high salaried guy in to replace John like Siakam or Kat...Wake up folks!!! because 1st of all we would be right where we started...in cap hell and a mediocre team and secondly, Russler is a business man not a fan period.

A salary dump can be seen as value and I see it that way.  Think about how handcuffed some of those New York Knick teams were in the 2000s.  Salary dumping and saving on our cap does inherently does have its own value to a lot of teams.  Depends on how you view it. 

It wasn't about John's value to get something in return (due to mismanagement of his situation, which I don't agree with).  At the end of the day though, to me it seems the best "value" they could get was shedding his contract and having the flexibility to do more which I'm hoping will be the case.  I'm ok waiting to see what happens.

[Final_quest]

57 minutes ago, AHF said:

Really the MLE is what we have to sign FAs.

No we still have the TPE for that purpose.  We’d just have to trade a pick to make it happen in a SNT.

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

No we still have the TPE for that purpose.  We’d just have to trade a pick to make it happen in a SNT.

That is possible but definitely makes FA even less attractive than it already is.  (Players tend to get overpaid in FA and having to add a pick to make something happen just makes that worse.)

But it ignores the real point in my mind which is that I don't think we will put ourselves back in the tax by adding a bunch of salary through the TPE.  And if we are going to remain under the tax, then the MLE is a better mechanism to do that so you can preserve the full TPE for something bigger during the season.

(This assumes we aren't dumping more salary.)

[Final_quest]

39 minutes ago, AHF said:

That is possible but definitely makes FA even less attractive than it already is.  (Players tend to get overpaid in FA and having to add a pick to make something happen just makes that worse.)

But it ignores the real point in my mind which is that I don't think we will put ourselves back in the tax by adding a bunch of salary through the TPE.  And if we are going to remain under the tax, then the MLE is a better mechanism to do that so you can preserve the full TPE for something bigger during the season.

(This assumes we aren't dumping more salary.)

True.  We have to look for the FA bargains or hope the market is soft this year for handing out oversized contracts due to a variety of factors.  

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

No we still have the TPE for that purpose.  We’d just have to trade a pick to make it happen in a SNT.

This is problematic for me with our pick deficit. If it's 2nd round picks, sure. If it's a 1st it better be a game changer and not guys like O'Neal and DFS. That's essentially trading JC and a 1st for these guys plus salary relief. Not a fan of that at all.

[RedDawg#8]

4 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

I feel Bey is a stopgap type of player for us. I don't think we are gonna break the bank to keep him unless you know he really balls out next year, which I don't think will be the case.

We keep hearing the FO really likes him. Every report routinely sites him along with OO, and Murray as players we WANT to extend.

I think his price tag depends on if we move Dre. With both, he is a bonus. Without Dre, he becomes a lot more valuable.

(Not comparing talents, just value)

[agentorange90]

I didn't expect much for Collins.  His stats and effectiveness have been declining for a few seasons and he has been on the trade block all that time.  That being said, he was a great Hawk for his leadership and just overall being a great guy.  I hope he improves his game and mainly his perimeter shooting.  This front office has an extremely hard job ahead and they really dug themselves in that hole by trading all the draft picks for Murray.  Now they need to likely try to deal Murray or lose him and have nothing in return for 3 draft picks.

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is problematic for me with our pick deficit. If it's 2nd round picks, sure. If it's a 1st it better be a game changer and not guys like O'Neal and DFS. That's essentially trading JC and a 1st for these guys plus salary relief. Not a fan of that at all.

I guess it depends on the return.  We likely have two first round picks in the next draft and may not really need two rookies on the roster by then.  Trading the Sacramento pick for the right player makes sense.  

[Jdawgflow]

5 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Everyone was like "His defense sucks." No one wanted that deal at the time. 

Some of us did want that trade at the time.  Getting a player who was similarly talented (viewed as maybe a small step down), cheaper, shorter contract, and 2 FRP was a great deal at the time and in hindsight was a terrible decision to not take. 

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, Jdawgflow said:

Some of us did want that trade at the time.  Getting a player who was similarly talented (viewed as maybe a small step down), cheaper, shorter contract, and 2 FRP was a great deal at the time and in hindsight was a terrible decision to not take. 

I don't believe there were 2 FRP as well. I'm not buying that.

[Jdawgflow]

2 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I don't believe there were 2 FRP as well. I'm not buying that.

You may be right but that was the deal mentioned and some (many?) of us would have jumped at that before Utah could have changed their minds.  Even if it was LM and 1 FRP we still would have done it.