Quin should be a 1 and Done.... I know we spent a lot of money...

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I started doing my deep dive research to support the OP’s initial point.

I will come back with the hard numbers as I am currently at work but, there is proof across a big enough sample size that we have certain lineups that are flat out superior than the lineups we choose to start games and halves with.

And as far as the Trae and DJ pairing, this lineup is only terrible when used with our starting groups (the ones with and without Dre/JJ). There are multiple 5 man units that include Trae and DJ that are killing it.

Some stuff is obvious, like having a true floor spacer like Bogi on the court makes many of his 5 man units come alive.

Other stuff is not so obvious, like the fact that some of our smaller lineups perform much better defensively than the ones with “length”.

Again, folks need data, but I wanted to at least put this out in the discussion for those hell bent on saying we don’t have the right pieces.

We are not utilizing the pieces we do have or playing our most effective lineups enough is more likely the truth.

Trae-DJ-Bogi-JJ-OO

Trae-Bogi-Bey-JJ-OO

Trae-DJ-Bey-JJ-OO

DJ-Bogi-Bey-JJ-OO

Mix in a few lineups that utilize Forrest, Mills, and G Matthews.

Is the defense better theoretically with CC and Hunter? Yes, but the net output is horrific.

When it’s all said and done, spacing seems like the bigger problem than anything else.

Quinn long should have shaken up our starting units rather than stay with the status quo which he inherited.

We want to run? We want shooting? We want ball movement?

That exists on the roster. You don’t have to search far to find it

I just think lineups is a red herring for criticizing a coach.  You could look at any team and say the coach isn't using their more effective lineups enough.   But those lineups are often very effective because of who they are being used against on the other team.  Which is a good sign that the coach actually does know what he's doing.   Just because a lineup that includes Bogi or even Forrest or Matthews is very effective in their minutes doesn't mean it would be as effective if you moved those guys into the starting lineup where they are facing the other teams starters. 

In other words, the fact that we have very effective lineups that include players like Forrest and Matthews is a sign of effective coaching not a negative.  

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I just think lineups is a red herring for criticizing a coach.  You could look at any team and say the coach isn't using their more effective lineups enough.   But those lineups are often very effective because of who they are being used against on the other team.  Which is a good sign that the coach actually does know what he's doing.   Just because a lineup that includes Bogi or even Forrest or Matthews is very effective in their minutes doesn't mean it would be as effective if you moved those guys into the starting lineup where they are facing the other teams starters. 

In other words, the fact that we have very effective lineups that include players like Forrest and Matthews is a sign of effective coaching not a negative.  

Or it could just be luck.

 

[Gray Mule]

Some things we don't know but we would like to. 

Example:  What has happened to AJ Griffin that he never gets to play and he's never been sent down to the Skyhawks?  I think that he should get one or the other.

Example:  Bey is our one "tough guy" and he's became one of Quin's favorite Hawks.  Why, when he's obviously in a terrible shooting slump, does he continue to get major minutes?

Example:  Why did the Hawks spend a 1st round pick on Kobe Bufkin and then refuse to call him up and play him.  Did we really draft him for us or for another NBA team that hasn't completed a deal with Atlanta to get him?

Example:  Why do we have several Hawk players that seldom if ever get to play, even when there is a blow-out loss and the clock is winding down?  That's a fine time to get a starter injured.

Example:  Why do we continue to see a lay-up drill against our starting five?  Is there no way to stop this?  We should have plans.

Example:  Nate always said he could only use so many players per game because he couldn't keep tabs on more than this.  Wonder what excuse Quin has?  Isn't that part of all his assistant coaches job?  If not, what do they do?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 hours ago, theheroatl said:

 whenever I see these posts I wonder what the replacement or better choice available would be? This is never addressed.

Should've kept Prundy as the coach. He was on of the coaches in Nate's regime that wanted JJ to get more minutes.

Quin Snyder deserves ZERO PASSES from this fan base. His defensive scheme is trash.

Ressler will fire Landry before Quin. Once thar domino falls, Quin will have no cover.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 hours ago, theheroatl said:

See that's the problem. All those other coaches are not realistic and aren't good candidates.

If anything Udoka was the coach to get but we don't need a has-been re-tread after back to back vet coaches.

 

I think Snyder is the answer.. this roster sucks big time

Snyder is the answer based on what?

Give 3 reasons why he is the answer 

[ATLHawks3]

How many coaches can we run through in a 5 year span?

[AHF]

12 hours ago, kg01 said:

But seriously, I root for stability so no we can't fire the guy.  Just gotta not do stoopid roster things and hope his plan starts coming together. 

This is where I am as well.  You can't just shuffle coaches in and out.  While I am unsatisfied with Quin's season so far, one good thing for us is that both Trae and JJ seem fully bought into what he is doing and they are the two most important pieces for us.  So I would stick with this longer and push him to make adjustments if I were Fields.  

[Atlantaholic]

16 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Coaches are overrated. Look the guy in Boston. He had a light resume. Doesn't matter, cause his roster is stacked.

I guess I'm inclined to agree with you, but really apples to apples, can we really say Nate got worst results with essentially the same group of guys? 

[AHF]

7 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

I guess I'm inclined to agree with you, but really apples to apples, can we really say Nate got worst results with essentially the same group of guys? 

No.  Quin hasn't done anything to distinguish himself from Nate in terms of the team's performance.  JC and Hunter being healthy were a couple of ways in which the roster was materially better last year but that difference is not enough to pretend that Quin is working some magic that Nate couldn't have matched.  

[macdaddy]

I didn't hear any of this criticism of Quin when he was coaching the Jazz.  In fact, it was the opposite.  Posters on here were begging for him.    Did he forget how to coach or what?   

Our wealth of talent was on full display last night. 

[JeffS17]

On 1/22/2024 at 6:06 AM, Diesel said:

First I want to give credit to Demond over at We talk Hawks TV...   I noticed that the HS hadn't touched this subject and it needs touching.

What we see from Quin is par for the course.  He had clashes with his FO in Utah before Ainge..  What's important to understand is the pattern.  Here are some of the reasons for those clashes...

 

We frowned upon Nate... Talked about how Nate didn't play young players.   This is the M.O. of Quin Snyder.   He doesn't play young players.  Notice that second quote, his reasoning for not playing young players is that he believe that those players were not rotation calibre.   Somebody said, well Diesel that was Then...   Explain to me why AJ hasn't gotten any valuable minutes of play?  Or how about Bufkin?  Bufkin was called up from the G-League for the Cleveland game.  Trae has Concussion protocol, will miss a few games.. . and guess what happens to Bufkin?  Sent back to the G-League. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Bufkin's G-League performance will translate on the pro floor.  I mean, his percentages are not stellar.  But I would much seen Bufkin on the road trip and us trying him out than to watch us play Trent Forrest and Patty Mills for 48 minutes.   We couldn't find 12 minutes for Bukfin?  We can't find 12 minutes for AJ?

People say that his offense is complicated and it takes a long time to get... I get that.. but I will say.. He was fortunate in Utah.  In Utah, he had Gobert and Mitchell.  That is a gift from the basketball gods.  A continuous defensive of the year candidate and a grade A scorer.   The signs are there.  Even reading what some Utah fans say...  They talk about the bad habit that Quin had of letting Mitchell be the offense in the 2nd half of games.  i.e., he can do what he wanted to do.   It leads to him having teams lose big leads.  We've already mentioned about his inability to make adjustments.  

I just think before we blow this whole team up and get all the draft picks in search of Quin's team... we need to ask ourselves.. Should we do all this for Quin?  IS he even capable of winning?

 

I love that the complaints are Quin didn't play two guys (Dante Exum and Nigel Williams-Goss) because he didn't think they're NBA rotation quality guys.  And now with some hindsight, we see that he is clearly correct.  Maybe we should trust the coach who spends every day with the players to decide who is ready for game time or not?

Calling Quin the problem right now is about the same as calling Trae the problem in my opinion -- there are too many glaring issues with this roster construction and personnel to even go there right now.  And Quin, like Trae, isn't going anywhere anyways.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I love that the complaints are Quin didn't play two guys (Dante Exum and Nigel Williams-Goss) because he didn't think they're NBA rotation quality guys.  And now with some hindsight, we see that he is clearly correct.  Maybe we should trust the coach who spends every day with the players to decide who is ready for game time or not?

Calling Quin the problem right now is about the same as calling Trae the problem in my opinion -- there are too many glaring issues with this roster construction and personnel to even go there right now.  And Quin, like Trae, isn't going anywhere anyways.

I'm not done with him at all but let's be fair to the criticism here.  We know that guys he is playing are not rotation worthy players either.  So I get frustration that higher upside players like AJ and Kobe are not getting any run while Matthews, Mathews, Forrest, Mills, etc. are getting more minutes.  None of them will be in this team's rotation in two years (hopefully won't be next year) and none of them are doing much to help us win this season other than having a solid game every once in a while in between some really rough ones.  

At least with Bufkin, I can get a case that him playing heavy minutes in the G-League is better than playing spot minutes in Atlanta.  AJ isn't playing anywhere which is crazy to me.  

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I'm not done with him at all but let's be fair to the criticism here.  We know that guys he is playing are not rotation worthy players either.  So I get frustration that higher upside players like AJ and Kobe are not getting any run while Matthews, Mathews, Forrest, Mills, etc. are getting more minutes.  None of them will be in this team's rotation in two years (hopefully won't be next year) and none of them are doing much to help us win this season other than having a solid game every once in a while in between some really rough ones.  

At least with Bufkin, I can get a case that him playing heavy minutes in the G-League is better than playing spot minutes in Atlanta.  AJ isn't playing anywhere which is crazy to me.  

Asked in another thread but doesn't AJ have to agree to play in college park?  

I think Kobe will be playing this season.  I've got no big issues there.  AJ there's obviously something going on there so i don't know how we can blame Quin without any of the facts. 

I agree on all the rest and I've been super critical of Garrison as a rotation player but if he continues to shoot 50% from 3 then he may make a career. 

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I'm not done with him at all but let's be fair to the criticism here.  We know that guys he is playing are not rotation worthy players either.  So I get frustration that higher upside players like AJ and Kobe are not getting any run while Matthews, Mathews, Forrest, Mills, etc. are getting more minutes.  None of them will be in this team's rotation in two years (hopefully won't be next year) and none of them are doing much to help us win this season other than having a solid game every once in a while in between some really rough ones.  

At least with Bufkin, I can get a case that him playing heavy minutes in the G-League is better than playing spot minutes in Atlanta.  AJ isn't playing anywhere which is crazy to me.  

I agree with all of this, but the way that was laid out was not compelling, to say the least.  No coach in the league was going to come in and impress with this roster, regardless of who they put out (developing rookies or veteran trash).  It's frankly nauseating reading more "it's the coaches problem" threads.  I will give Quin the benefit of the doubt in the same way I did Nate for a year and a half, that there are probably very good reasons he's doing what he's doing.  

[Diesel]

26 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I didn't hear any of this criticism of Quin when he was coaching the Jazz.  In fact, it was the opposite.  Posters on here were begging for him.    Did he forget how to coach or what?   

Our wealth of talent was on full display last night. 

You always want what you don't have.  I don't know if anybody would have paid attention to the details of Utah.  It's impressive that he got a Utah team to 52 wins, etc.   But usually those division leading and even conference leading teams would get to the playoffs and get Swept in either the first or 2nd round.   And those who wanted him would say.. Well, he had to contend with the Warriors or the Lakers or the Rockets.. those were better teams.  But you go from being the best team in the conference to being swept?  It's almost like you didn't put up a fight. 

The truth is that he had some very good players who are still making a difference for the teams that they play on.  ANd the same complaints were there.. but winning makes complaints go quiet. 

 

 

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I agree with all of this, but the way that was laid out was not compelling, to say the least.  No coach in the league was going to come in and impress with this roster, regardless of who they put out (developing rookies or veteran trash).  It's frankly nauseating reading more "it's the coaches problem" threads.  I will give Quin the benefit of the doubt in the same way I did Nate for a year and a half, that there are probably very good reasons he's doing what he's doing.  

I agree with the basic idea that you have to give any coach time.  I've seen some positive things offensively for this team compared to how we ran the offense last year and buy in from some key players.  The defense has been abysmal.  Overall he also hasn't done anything to really impress but I do think you have to give a new coach more time than this.  The fact that former Utah players said it took time to get comfortable with his system and that he had a rough start there before some strong seasons is another reason for more time.

The one thing that makes me less comfortable than a simple "just wait for results" type of approach is the fact that we are hearing the roster needs to be turned over.  That gives me less confidence that some turnaround is coming as players absorb his system and schemes and makes me think we could be restarting the process of familiarizing players next season as the majority of the roster turns over.

[TheTruth]

My patience is wearing extremely thin with Quin. Do I think he's better than Nate, yeah. But he better start being more flexible with his player personnel decisions (i.e. giving meaningful minutes to guys like Bufkin and AJ and less so to never-was-beens like Forrest, Mathews, Matthews and Patty Mills) for this team to really excel once we get more talent in here. 

And be more flexible with the rotations! It's OK to play a big lineup, Quin. Seriously, did the big lineup take your lunch money or something?

Ultimately this team needs more talent to elevate from "mid status" into contender status. Neither Quin, Pop or Phil Jackson were ever going to change that. Trae, Murray, and JJ are not enough as bonafide blue chips. The rest of the cast is either good to have but not invaluable (Bogi, Capela, Bey), underperforming (OO, AJ), injured and underperforming (Hunter), or just current or should-be-bench pieces (basically everyone except Trae, Murray and JJ). That's nowhere good enough. However, I have strong concerns that we will be held back, or said another way - our team success won't be optimized - if Quin doesn't become more flexible when and if we do finally get some contending-team worthy talent.

Edited January 23 by TheTruth

[JayBirdHawk]

31 minutes ago, AHF said:

AJ isn't playing anywhere which is crazy to me.  

This!!!

[Diesel]

26 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I love that the complaints are Quin didn't play two guys (Dante Exum and Nigel Williams-Goss) because he didn't think they're NBA rotation quality guys.  And now with some hindsight, we see that he is clearly correct. 

I don't think you see the bigger picture @JeffS17.  Let's speak Exum.   He was a 3rd year player who was a lottery pick.  A guy that should be in your development...

This wasn't bad.  I mean... a 6'5" PG who can get you 8.1/3/2 in 17 mpg...

But.  He was one of 3 PGs on the team.   Really 2.   He couldn't get more PT... look at what he was able to do in comparison to Rubio.  Better FG%, Better Assists per minute, Better Pts  per minute.   This guy couldn't get more time?

I know... you don't know the Details Diesel... ALright... Let's take one game.. One of Exum's best games... One of Utah's best games. 

Utah vs. Minny... They won by 30 something. 

Exum played 17 minutes.  One of his better minutes...  Gave 14/5/3  But check out the first quarter..

Before looking at Exum.  Notice the short rotation.  Didn't even notice that they had Georges Niang.  Interesting.  Exum in three minutes got 4/4/3.  My point is that Exum should have been rotation quality player.  First off he was a lottery pick.  Secondly, he was producing in your system.. really per minute probably better than your starter.     The thing is.. your rotation is so rigid.. it's a playoff rotation.  It gives room to nobody to develop...  and all who complained about Nate and his style of developing, need to be quiet.   Snyder may be worse. 

 

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, TheTruth said:

Ultimately this team needs more talent to elevate from "mid status" into contender status. Neither Quin, Pop or Phil Jackson were ever going to change that.

I Unno...   I think this team could be a winner if they had a coach who understood what we have a little better... and we will win more once Hunter and Trae gets back.  But let's think about it.    Quin's system takes us away from the strength of most of our players.   We don't have a three point shooting team.  That's what Quin wants and needs.   But he can't coach to what we do have:

• Clint = Rim Running Center.  Savant at PNR basketball. 
• DJ = Best in transition. 
• JJ = A beast in transition. 

We have taken these guys and said.. hey, we're going to put all of you on the three point line and shoot up as many threes as possible.   That will open up the lane.

That doesn't work with their natural skillset.  So you got DJ trying to be a halfcourt PG.   Let's talk about DJ.  DJ has done the most to change his game to fit Quin.  He's a much much better three point shooter than he had been before.  He has made it fit. 

The players that fit Quin is:

• Bogi
• Trae
• Hunter
• Bey.

All of these guys are capable of shooting above 36% from three.  Because if all you want to do is stand on the three point line and chuck shots.. then these are the type of players you need.

But look at those players.   Nobody can attack the rim and you don't ask them to.  That's the failing in Quin's offense.   He doesn't expect or like midrange game and attacking the rim.   It goes against the "modern NBA".   The "Modern NBA" is going out with the Warriors.   It won't win.  You know what wins?  Old School NBA.   Whether that be half court dominance or fast breaking.   Just look at your KING. Denver is as Old School as it gets.   Miami showed up to play Denver in the finals and this is what Denver did:

Jokic = 6'11,  Gordon =6'8,  MPJ = 6'10  And they pounded Miami.  In game 1, Denver set the tone and shot 51% from the field.  For the whole series, these jokers shot 49.6%.   Miami had all that three point shooting stuff going for them.. put up a whole lot of threes.. and were escorted off the court in 5 games.   Their hardest series was against Phoenix.. where they shot 49.6% from the field.  Phoenix shot a whole lot of three pointers.  But was escorted off the court in 6 games. 

SO what we're doing is trying to recreate what Phoenix and Miami did... Have a whole lot of shooters..  If you know what I know, you better learn to score going towards the basket.  Have some transition...and a middy game is good.