Quin should be a 1 and Done.... I know we spent a lot of money...

[Diesel]

First I want to give credit to Demond over at We talk Hawks TV...   I noticed that the HS hadn't touched this subject and it needs touching.

What we see from Quin is par for the course.  He had clashes with his FO in Utah before Ainge..  What's important to understand is the pattern.  Here are some of the reasons for those clashes...

Quote

• Lindsey and the team’s front office disliked Snyder’s tendency to keep smaller, consistent rotations, which prevented end-of-bench players and prospects from getting playing time, players that the front office believed in or wanted to raise the value of (among them Dante Exum and Nigel Williams-Goss).

Quote

Meanwhile, Snyder believed, frankly, that those players weren’t frequently NBA-rotation caliber, and playing them significant minutes would hamper his chances at winning. Snyder believed Lindsey didn’t give his teams as much talent as possible and left holes on the roster unfilled, which limited his options in coaching 

Quote

In Derrick Favors’ first stint with the Jazz, Lindsey was a proponent of starting Favors at the power forward position next to All-NBA center Rudy Gobert, touting that pairing’s defensive acumen. Snyder, meanwhile, struggled with spacing the floor under those lineups.

 

We frowned upon Nate... Talked about how Nate didn't play young players.   This is the M.O. of Quin Snyder.   He doesn't play young players.  Notice that second quote, his reasoning for not playing young players is that he believe that those players were not rotation calibre.   Somebody said, well Diesel that was Then...   Explain to me why AJ hasn't gotten any valuable minutes of play?  Or how about Bufkin?  Bufkin was called up from the G-League for the Cleveland game.  Trae has Concussion protocol, will miss a few games.. . and guess what happens to Bufkin?  Sent back to the G-League. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Bufkin's G-League performance will translate on the pro floor.  I mean, his percentages are not stellar.  But I would much seen Bufkin on the road trip and us trying him out than to watch us play Trent Forrest and Patty Mills for 48 minutes.   We couldn't find 12 minutes for Bukfin?  We can't find 12 minutes for AJ?

People say that his offense is complicated and it takes a long time to get... I get that.. but I will say.. He was fortunate in Utah.  In Utah, he had Gobert and Mitchell.  That is a gift from the basketball gods.  A continuous defensive of the year candidate and a grade A scorer.   The signs are there.  Even reading what some Utah fans say...  They talk about the bad habit that Quin had of letting Mitchell be the offense in the 2nd half of games.  i.e., he can do what he wanted to do.   It leads to him having teams lose big leads.  We've already mentioned about his inability to make adjustments.  

I just think before we blow this whole team up and get all the draft picks in search of Quin's team... we need to ask ourselves.. Should we do all this for Quin?  IS he even capable of winning?

 

[theheroatl]

 whenever I see these posts I wonder what the replacement or better choice available would be? This is never addressed.

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

 whenever I see these posts I wonder what the replacement or better choice available would be? This is never addressed.

Better choice in this case would be somebody who knows how to work with young players and who knows how to manage 2 PGs.  Before we took Snyder, I had names like D'Antoni (I still think this guy could make it work),  JVG - He still has a lot upstairs.  But of your younger guys with potential:    Sam Cassell.   Charles Lee.  David Adelman.   Then there's a guy like Terry Stotts.

My guess though is that we'll stick it out with Snyder... but I don't think we should.

 

[theheroatl]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Better choice in this case would be somebody who knows how to work with young players and who knows how to manage 2 PGs.  Before we took Snyder, I had names like D'Antoni (I still think this guy could make it work),  JVG - He still has a lot upstairs.  But of your younger guys with potential:    Sam Cassell.   Charles Lee.  David Adelman.   Then there's a guy like Terry Stotts.

My guess though is that we'll stick it out with Snyder... but I don't think we should.

 

See that's the problem. All those other coaches are not realistic and aren't good candidates.

If anything Udoka was the coach to get but we don't need a has-been re-tread after back to back vet coaches.

 

I think Snyder is the answer.. this roster sucks big time

Edited January 22 by theheroatl

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

See that's the problem. All those other coaches are not realistic and aren't good candidates.

If anything Udoka was the coach to get but we don't need a has-been re-tread after back to back vet coaches.

 

I think Snyder is the answer.. this roster sucks big time

Dont sell us short.  This is the Hawks we talkin about, baybee.  We always get the worst of both worlds.

The roster sucks AND Kwin's done a bad job.  High five? 

[kg01]

Ayo @Diesel, shouldn't it be 1.5 and done?

But seriously, I root for stability so no we can't fire the guy.  Just gotta not do stoopid roster things and hope his plan starts coming together. 

[bleachkit]

Coaches are overrated. Look the guy in Boston. He had a light resume. Doesn't matter, cause his roster is stacked.

[SalvorMallow]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

First I want to give credit to Demond over at We talk Hawks TV...   I noticed that the HS hadn't touched this subject and it needs touching.

What we see from Quin is par for the course.  He had clashes with his FO in Utah before Ainge..  What's important to understand is the pattern.  Here are some of the reasons for those clashes...

 

We frowned upon Nate... Talked about how Nate didn't play young players.   This is the M.O. of Quin Snyder.   He doesn't play young players.  Notice that second quote, his reasoning for not playing young players is that he believe that those players were not rotation calibre.   Somebody said, well Diesel that was Then...   Explain to me why AJ hasn't gotten any valuable minutes of play?  Or how about Bufkin?  Bufkin was called up from the G-League for the Cleveland game.  Trae has Concussion protocol, will miss a few games.. . and guess what happens to Bufkin?  Sent back to the G-League. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that Bufkin's G-League performance will translate on the pro floor.  I mean, his percentages are not stellar.  But I would much seen Bufkin on the road trip and us trying him out than to watch us play Trent Forrest and Patty Mills for 48 minutes.   We couldn't find 12 minutes for Bukfin?  We can't find 12 minutes for AJ?

People say that his offense is complicated and it takes a long time to get... I get that.. but I will say.. He was fortunate in Utah.  In Utah, he had Gobert and Mitchell.  That is a gift from the basketball gods.  A continuous defensive of the year candidate and a grade A scorer.   The signs are there.  Even reading what some Utah fans say...  They talk about the bad habit that Quin had of letting Mitchell be the offense in the 2nd half of games.  i.e., he can do what he wanted to do.   It leads to him having teams lose big leads.  We've already mentioned about his inability to make adjustments.  

I just think before we blow this whole team up and get all the draft picks in search of Quin's team... we need to ask ourselves.. Should we do all this for Quin?  IS he even capable of winning?

 

We played .50 ball last year, our roster got worse, and now we're playing <50 ball. I wish Quin could make a miracle happen with this sorry roster but it didn't happen. 

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Coaches are overrated. Look the guy in Boston. He had a light resume. Doesn't matter, cause his roster is stacked.

Coaches can definitely make a difference but there is only so much they can do.  I think of coaches who are acknowledged greats when they coached teams with depleted rosters.  For example, Pops in SA.  Great coach but his teams stink when they lack talent.  Larry Brown coached a half dozen or so 20-something win teams in different places when the talent wasn't there.  

Coaches can elevate or hold back talent but their impact is so much less than who is on the floor.

[Gray Mule]

While it's true, Hawks don't have a complete roster., pieces are missing, we are not developing what we have.  Diesel, Hawks cannot afford to let Quin Snyder walk.  They can demand that he quit worrying about wins so much and worry when our youth don't get meaningful minutes.  

He wants to strip the club and rebuild with all the players he wants instead of developing the youth that we have.  We often question why he took this job.  I believe he thought he could tear down and rebuild.  Be careful about what you want.  You may get it, only to find out that what you wanted don't work.  Do you hear me Quin Snyder?

[macdaddy]

If the rationale for firing Quin is that he's coaching like he did in Utah then Landry and Kyle need to be fired.  

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Ayo @Diesel, shouldn't it be 1.5 and done?

But seriously, I root for stability so no we can't fire the guy.  Just gotta not do stoopid roster things and hope his plan starts coming together. 

KG, if you knew that the airplane was not going to make it to the destination, would you still board it or would you take another flight or get there another way?  I understand your point on stability... and  know Ressler doesn't want to leave 32 Million dollars on the table.   However, we're about to make moves that will kill off this team.   DJ is the first brick.  Trae is the next brick.. and then we may try to build a team around JJ and hope to find some good draft picks.   That's a losing plan.  It comes right out of the Detroit Piston playbook.  It's going to be 10 years of rebuild.  We did the same with BK... it took about 10 years.   

We're going to look back at this moment and say...  we should have made this work but we wanted a team that Snyder could coach.  Snyder hasn't been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs.   He hasn't shown the ability to coach his team up to that level.  They were down 3-0 to Houston in the playoffs and Snyder was saying.. I know that we will come out of our shooting slump in the next game.   Keep on Shooting is not an offensive scheme.

 

 

[Diesel]

40 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

We played .50 ball last year, our roster got worse, and now we're playing <50 ball. I wish Quin could make a miracle happen with this sorry roster but it didn't happen. 

It's so easy to blame the talent... but can we consider the talent?

• Isn't Trae.. top 2 in assists and top 10 in scoring?
• Isn't DJ a 20/5/5 player?
• Isn't Clint the best offensive rebounder in the game and top 15 in total rebounds?
• Aren't  we a top 10 team in steals?
• Aren't we a top 15 team in offensive rating?

Obvioiusly we have talent.   Trae, DJ, JJ, Clint are all talented players. 

We've been injured.  #12 has had terrible effect on our bottom line.    However, Quin hasn't used everything we have.   This is his nature.  His nature is to play these tight rotations and run them to death.

We don't even practice as much as we did last year.   That's probably why we can't find our man on defense. 

 

 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

It's so easy to blame the talent... but can we consider the talent?

• Isn't Trae.. top 2 in assists and top 10 in scoring?
• Isn't DJ a 20/5/5 player?
• Isn't Clint the best offensive rebounder in the game and top 15 in total rebounds?
• Aren't  we a top 10 team in steals?
• Aren't we a top 15 team in offensive rating?

Obvioiusly we have talent.   Trae, DJ, JJ, Clint are all talented players. 

We've been injured.  #12 has had terrible effect on our bottom line.    However, Quin hasn't used everything we have.   This is his nature.  His nature is to play these tight rotations and run them to death.

We don't even practice as much as we did last year.   That's probably why we can't find our man on defense. 

 

 

A few good players doesn't cut it.  It's the same thing we've been talking about since September.  Positions 3-5 aren't going to cut it.  That doesn't mean there aren't some good players in there but as a group it's not good enough to compete. 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

A few good players doesn't cut it.  It's the same thing we've been talking about since September.  Positions 3-5 aren't going to cut it.  That doesn't mean there aren't some good players in there but as a group it's not good enough to compete. 

We like JJ.. no...  

Even though we campaign to get Clint outta there, Clint is more good than Bad...

The problem is Depth and the 3.   

Here's where the coach is a problem.  Even if we had good Depth.  His rigid system says.. he only has a rotation of 7.  Depth doesn't matter to him.   If Hunter were here.. our 7 would be:

Trae, DJ, Hunter, JJ, CC.. with OO and Bey off the bench.   Well, maybe Bogi. 

Ponder that.   We have 8 players that we feel decently about.   That's all that Quin wants. 

 

 

 

[AHF]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

  DJ is the first brick.  Trae is the next brick.. and then we may try to build a team around JJ and hope to find some good draft picks.   That's a losing plan.  It comes right out of the Detroit Piston playbook.  It's going to be 10 years of rebuild.  We did the same with BK... it took about 10 years.   

I fully agree that it is not the way to go right now.  When we rebuilt with BK, he took over the 2002-03 Hawks that were built around a flawed lineup of JT, Shareef, Big Dog, and Ratliff.  He began his tear down in 2003-04.  It took 4 years of rebuilding to be back in the playoffs with the memorable Boston series in 2007-08.  So definitely not 10 years.

I think 4 or 5 years is much  more typical.  Think Orlando (currently on pace to make the playoffs 4 years after their last playoff appearance).  Think OKC (currently on pace to make the playoffs in year 5 after they sold off / walked away from Westbrook and George). 

That said, we've all seen teams that did a worse job of rebuilding and were closer to a decade in length from the beginning of the tear down to actually making the playoffs.  Detroit is in year 5 of their rebuild and looks nowhere close to making a playoff run.  Sacramento went over a decade without sniffing the playoffs.  It can be really ugly for a really long time.

[macdaddy]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Trae, DJ, Hunter, JJ, CC.. with OO and Bey off the bench.   Well, maybe Bogi. 

Ponder that.   We have 8 players that we feel decently about.   That's all that Quin wants. 

Even if this was the case that's not 8 players i feel 'decently' about (ignoring the fact that feeling decent about a player isn't a ringing endorsement)

The real problem is jj/oo/cc.  That's not enough at the 4/5.  We've seen it play out already.  When JJ was hurt we slid SFs into his spot and got killed.   OO/CC give you nothing but putbacks on the offensive end.  JJ has all the potential in the world but is not a go to bucket getter yet.

JJ/OO/CC - That can't be your 4/5 rotation for the season.  Folks have been saying it since before the season started and it just continues to be a problem.   Add to that Hunter/Bey being a very average SF rotation and we've got big frontcourt talent issues. 

I mean find a contending team that has a weaker frontcourt rotation than we have.  I don't think it exists. 

[givemesome1ce1]

When Trae and DJ is on the court, it’s a net negative. When Trae is off the court, and DJ is on the court we are worse on offense and NOW defensively too. We are better offensively and defensively with Trae on the court. Why do we need to have a third coach to confirm what we already know about this pairing? It’s the same stuff over and over again. Just break it up already! 

Edited January 22 by givemesome1ce1

[Peoriabird]

Coach Killa strikes again!

[RedDawg#8]

I started doing my deep dive research to support the OP’s initial point.

I will come back with the hard numbers as I am currently at work but, there is proof across a big enough sample size that we have certain lineups that are flat out superior than the lineups we choose to start games and halves with.

And as far as the Trae and DJ pairing, this lineup is only terrible when used with our starting groups (the ones with and without Dre/JJ). There are multiple 5 man units that include Trae and DJ that are killing it.

Some stuff is obvious, like having a true floor spacer like Bogi on the court makes many of his 5 man units come alive.

Other stuff is not so obvious, like the fact that some of our smaller lineups perform much better defensively than the ones with “length”.

Again, folks need data, but I wanted to at least put this out in the discussion for those hell bent on saying we don’t have the right pieces.

We are not utilizing the pieces we do have or playing our most effective lineups enough is more likely the truth.

Trae-DJ-Bogi-JJ-OO

Trae-Bogi-Bey-JJ-OO

Trae-DJ-Bey-JJ-OO

DJ-Bogi-Bey-JJ-OO

Mix in a few lineups that utilize Forrest, Mills, and G Matthews.

Is the defense better theoretically with CC and Hunter? Yes, but the net output is horrific.

When it’s all said and done, spacing seems like the bigger problem than anything else.

Quinn long should have shaken up our starting units rather than stay with the status quo which he inherited.

We want to run? We want shooting? We want ball movement?

That exists on the roster. You don’t have to search far to find it