We should bite the bullet and blow it all up

[sturt]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

It is easier to go from mediocre to good than from terrible to good. 

I do not disagree with this.

But I would have disagreed with it, AHF, if you'd have chosen to use the words "championship caliber" instead of "good."

For example, SAS will be championship caliber sooner than ATL will be, imo... but ATL might conceivably be good sooner than will SAS.

 

If I were to embrace Soth's assertion, I would point to OKC's pending plausible championship run as the obvious model to pursue. (Now, I say that ignorantly because I don't have any real knowledge of what OKC seems capable of doing--I'm only looking at the standings and seeing they broke through this season.)

But OKC has had a GM who is generally well-regarded in league circles, and an ownership group that has similarly been enthusiastic in words, but about to prove whether or not they're up to taking the next step, ie, in deeds.

What does ATL have.

I don't even bother putting a question mark on that, as-if to ask. It's a statement.

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

OKC has done it better but it's the same roadmap.  We stockpiled picks drafted high and have been building around them.  Unfortunately we didn't do it as well and had no stability in the front office.   But that doesn't mean we should abandon the process because we are sitting on one and potentially two elite players right now.  

They are soon going to have big salary decisions to make too.  

 

[sturt]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

They are soon going to have big salary decisions to make too.  

Yep.

24 minutes ago, sturt said:

But OKC has had a GM who is generally well-regarded in league circles, and an ownership group that has similarly been enthusiastic in words, but about to prove whether or not they're up to taking the next step, ie, in deeds.

And. Still...

24 minutes ago, sturt said:

What does ATL have.

 

[macdaddy]

Well i'm not going to argue that we have a competent organization.  Yet another reason not to cut and run.  We somehow got some really good players.  Let's keep them and add to them vs. let guys with no drafting track record try to build again through the draft. 

But my way requires money so there's that

 

[Gray Mule]

As we contemplate all this, remember how, with our youth playing against the opponent, it soon became necessary for them to return their starters.  Hawks were just not that horrible.  Could be a preview of things to come!

[sturt]

22 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Well i'm not going to argue that we have a competent organization.  Yet another reason not to cut and run.

While I could quibble with the words "cut and run"... one doesn't have to run, only cut, and going on hiatus (or sabbatical or whatever term one prefers) can be the most appealing option when rationality and emotional peace are held as paramount... I'm left curious how sentence A presents "reason" to "not"... and that, not to seek an argument, rather just trying to listen and gain understanding... particularly in light of the next words...

22 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Let's keep them and add to them vs. let guys with no drafting track record try to build again through the draft. 

But my way requires money so there's that

So... yeah. Again. To what end? Who's kidding whom?

[AHF]

41 minutes ago, sturt said:

I do not disagree with this.

But I would have disagreed with it, AHF, if you'd have chosen to use the words "championship caliber" instead of "good."

For example, SAS will be championship caliber sooner than ATL will be, imo... but ATL might conceivably be good sooner than will SAS.

 

If I were to embrace Soth's assertion, I would point to OKC's pending plausible championship run as the obvious model to pursue. (Now, I say that ignorantly because I don't have any real knowledge of what OKC seems capable of doing--I'm only looking at the standings and seeing they broke through this season.)

But OKC has had a GM who is generally well-regarded in league circles, and an ownership group that has similarly been enthusiastic in words, but about to prove whether or not they're up to taking the next step, ie, in deeds.

What does ATL have.

I don't even bother putting a question mark on that, as-if to ask. It's a statement.

 

 

 

SA has the advantage of having drafted a player who looks like he could be a generational, perennial MVP candidate (and a big man to boot).  Once you have that, the path to being championship caliber is much shorter than a team like the Hawks so no argument there.  SA did what we did - they sold off players for picks and tanked to get high draft picks.  The big difference is they got the #1 pick in one of those no brainer drats like LeBron, Duncan, etc.  Atlanta has ended up with the #4, 5, 6 and 10 picks in drafts that didn't have that kind of player.  

If you could guarantee me Shaq 2.0 or Wemby 2.0 or Duncan 2.0, etc. if the Hawks tore down and worked to rebuild then I'd be on board rebuilding instead of retooling.  But the reality is that this is a rare thing and the vast majority of high lottery picks don't end up being nearly as good as those championship cornerstones.  Most teams that go through this process go through years of pain before emerging on the other side.

When we already have Trae and JJ as high upside players on the roster to go with some nice pieces (I'd include OO, Hunter and Kobe among the young pieces), I think working further to try to succeed with those players makes more sense especially given that our starting point is not having control of our 2024, 2025, and 2026 picks.  We are already behind the 8-ball in a rebuild situation so that tilts towards trying to retool and then falling back on rebuilding when we own our picks in a few years if we fall on our face.  

[JayBirdHawk]

23 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

OKC has done it better but it's the same roadmap.  We stockpiled picks drafted high and have been building around them.  Unfortunately we didn't do it as well and had no stability in the front office.   But that doesn't mean we should abandon the process because we are sitting on one and potentially two elite players right now.  

They are soon going to have big salary decisions to make too.  

 

OKC has had stability with their ownership , front office and head coaching over the last 4 years.

Hawks not so much over the same 4 years. It's always something:

Ownership: Nicky whispering in Daddy's ear and having a 'louder' voice

Front Office: Schlenk, Landry, Kyle

Coaches: LP, Nate, Quin.

The instability has an effect on the roadmap. Ours is a meandering mess vs a straigt line to the same destination.

[Spud2nique]

After reading this topic..

 

I can’t go through another rebuild… 3- 6 or 7 years.. maybe 4 years but.. I can’t..

 

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

our starting point is not having control of our 2024, 2025, and 2026 picks. 

Correction: 2025, 2026 and 2027.

[sturt]

42 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ownership: Nicky whispering in Daddy's ear and having a 'louder' voice

Front Office: Schlenk, Landry, Kyle

Coaches: LP, Nate, Quin.

 

To which Antony Peter, I'm told from well-placed sources (ie, pretty much, his own mouth, speaking to Schultz last year), would respond...

 

"But you don't get it. Everyone in the office loves Nicky... just ask them. They'll back me up.

 

"Schlenk was just too controlling. He didn't play well with others.

 

"And coaches? Huh?

"Didn't I get rid of LP when you said I should get rid of LP?

"Didn't I get rid of Nate when you said I should get rid of Nate?

 

"What do you want from me?!? How is any of this my fault?!?"

 

 

[terrell]

11 hours ago, Sothron said:

I haven't been active much and I apologize for that. 

I have thought about this post for some time. I can't keep tilting at windmills because one wonderful playoff run we *almost* won a title. That was going on 4 seasons ago. 

This team does not work. The only way to really do this right is a complete tear down. Keep Jalen and guys on rookie contracts not named AJ Griffin. 

Flip Trae to the Spurs for our picks plus some of the ones they control.

Flip DJ for whatever the best deal is.

Flip Hunter for whatever the best deal is.

Flip Capela...OO....Bogi. Just keep moving them out, collect assets for future drafts and start all over with Quin and Hawks U over at College Park.

This franchise is in a horrible place. We have no picks or a swap the next three straight seasons after this upcoming draft. This team is a play in at best with the holes on the roster. We have an owner that is beyond cheap. 

There's no easy fix or even a tough fix for this. It simply does not WORK. We need to go back to a rebuild. We have enough good players to at least get a jump on a rebuild. Going down the path we've been where the FO does basically nothing except make the roster worse so the seventh richest owner in the NBA doesn't pay the LT is simply madness.

My thoughts exactly...

I'd much rather watch a rebuilding team than this mess...

 

Edited April 19 by terrell

[Hawkmoor]

CBS Sport floated out trading Young for Ingram and some picks.  Thats interesting because the Pelicans don't have a true point guard and Barkley mentioned it during a recent telecast. I looked at that and saw a better plan (because its more doable). I believe neither the Hawks or Pelicans would want to move off Ingram or Young. That plan would be to trade DJM to the Pelicans for Herbert Jones and Dyson Daniels. The numbers say it would work with the Pelicans receiving DJM and the Hawks receiving Herbert Jones and Dyson Daniels.  Picks can be worked out obviously.  The strength of THAT trade would be the Hawks getting length and defense from Jones and Daniels and scoring from Jones.

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Hawkmoor

[terrell]

5 hours ago, ShooterSays said:

This only works if you trade Trae to SAS for our picks + assets. Otherwise, we’re just tanking for their sake.

I’m not ready to give up on Trae. Not easy to find 27/10 players and I’m not going to just assume we luck into another superstar in the draft. We’re more likely to find another Sheldon or Marv Williams. Also not ready for years of unwatchable basketball.

I think we trade DJM this summer and make a final run at this with Trae and Quin. Find some better fits and run this back until our debt to the Spurs is paid.

Its unwatchable now.. lol

"I'm gonna be old and gray and we're still going to be looking for the right fits around Trae"

I said this a while back...

My 54th birthday is next month.. lol

Edited April 19 by terrell

[terrell]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

THAT'S A NO FOR ME!

We need to get past the 'getting picks back from SAS." It's a pipe dream. As long as we keep that the focus we'll never move past it.

We took a chance on DJ and if it's not working, sometimes it just doesn't- deal with that portion of it and move on. (Dallas took a chance on KP it didn't work, they moved on, it happens).

All this would do is give Ressler more time and excuses to not spend to put a real quality product on the court. Why make it easy?

Anybody thinks Quin wants a total rebuild? 

Tearing it down is easy. Building it back up is the hard part. This is where we are....the HARD PART of our last rebuild. DO THE WORK!! 

It requires a real commitment (not just lip service) from ownership, a real plan with proper execution from the front office and a buy in from the coach.  There's no Easy Button.

GET TO WORK!

 

"Building it back up"

To where we are now? 

We're a fringe playin team.. lol

 

 

Edited April 19 by terrell

[ShooterSays]

5 minutes ago, terrell said:

Its unwatchable now.. lol

It can be worse my friend....so so so much worse:

This is what peak tanking looks like for those calling for it. Be careful what you wish for.

[bird_dirt]

52 minutes ago, AHF said:

SA has the advantage of having drafted a player who looks like he could be a generational, perennial MVP candidate (and a big man to boot).  Once you have that, the path to being championship caliber is much shorter than a team like the Hawks so no argument there.  SA did what we did - they sold off players for picks and tanked to get high draft picks.  The big difference is they got the #1 pick in one of those no brainer drats like LeBron, Duncan, etc.  Atlanta has ended up with the #4, 5, 6 and 10 picks in drafts that didn't have that kind of player.  

If you could guarantee me Shaq 2.0 or Wemby 2.0 or Duncan 2.0, etc. if the Hawks tore down and worked to rebuild then I'd be on board rebuilding instead of retooling.  But the reality is that this is a rare thing and the vast majority of high lottery picks don't end up being nearly as good as those championship cornerstones.  Most teams that go through this process go through years of pain before emerging on the other side.

When we already have Trae and JJ as high upside players on the roster to go with some nice pieces (I'd include OO, Hunter and Kobe among the young pieces), I think working further to try to succeed with those players makes more sense especially given that our starting point is not having control of our 2024, 2025, and 2026 picks.  We are already behind the 8-ball in a rebuild situation so that tilts towards trying to retool and then falling back on rebuilding when we own our picks in a few years if we fall on our face.  

Hell, even if you are lucky enough to draft a player like that it doesn’t guaranteed you anything. Shaq never won anything in Orlando. 

[theheroatl]

18 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

CBS Sport floated out trading Young for Ingram and some picks.  Thats interesting because the Pelicans don't have a true point guard and Barkley mentioned it during a recent telecast. I looked at that and saw a better plan (because its more doable). I believe neither the Hawks or Pelicans would want to move off Ingram or Young. That plan would be to trade DJM to the Pelicans for Herbert Jones and Dyson Daniels. The numbers say it would work with the Pelicans receiving DJM and the Hawks receiving Herbert Jones and Dyson Daniels.  Picks can be worked out obviously.  The strength of THAT trade would be the Hawks getting length and defense from Jones and Daniels and scoring from Jones.

 

 

 

 

I still think the Pelicans and Griff are the ideal trade partner for this offseason...

Anything centered on DJM and including Herb Jones would be great... 

 

[terrell]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

OKC has done it better but it's the same roadmap.  We stockpiled picks drafted high and have been building around them.  Unfortunately we didn't do it as well and had no stability in the front office.   But that doesn't mean we should abandon the process because we are sitting on one and potentially two elite players right now.  

They are soon going to have big salary decisions to make too.  

 

"We didn't do it as well"

Understatement of the year...

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

OKC has done it better but it's the same roadmap.  We stockpiled picks drafted high and have been building around them.  Unfortunately we didn't do it as well and had no stability in the front office.   But that doesn't mean we should abandon the process because we are sitting on one and potentially two elite players right now.  

They are soon going to have big salary decisions to make too.  

 

OKC tanked for so many years. We only tanked for two years.