Official Game Thread: heat at Hawks

[nathan2331]

Maybe we can be like the Timberwolves trying to cling to an 8th seed after 13 years in the lottery.

Or we could draft the next NBA superstar. Nothing is guaranteed now, but what I do know is that we'd never win a championship so long as we re-signed Millsap. Sucks to say, but this team peaked in 2014 and started going downhill when we lost Ferry and couldn't even manage to re-sign Carroll.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

12 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Maybe we can be like the Timberwolves trying to cling to an 8th seed after 13 years in the lottery.

 

Or we could draft the next NBA superstar. Nothing is guaranteed now, but what I do know is that we'd never win a championship so long as we re-signed Millsap. Sucks to say, but this team peaked in 2014 and started going downhill when we lost Ferry and couldn't even manage to re-sign Carroll.

Obviously, simply drafting the NBA's next superstar isn't the way to get off the lottery treadmill.  You actually have to build a team, and the tanking philosophy is completely incompatible with proper team building.

[AHF]

If we were in the West and had resigned Millsap, we wouldn't even be in the conversation for potential playoff spots (I don't think we'd have a prayer in the East with a hurt Millsap this season either).  We'd be wondering which lottery pick we will get just like today except we'd have the satisfaction/dissatisfaction that Charlotte Hornets fans enjoy today.  Last year we would have been 8th in the West. 

We would have missed the playoffs entirely in 2014, 2013, 2011, 2009, and 2008.  Being in the East over the last decade gives us a bit of an inflated sense of how good we were during all these years we spent hovering around and usually slightly above .500 with zero chance of contending.

[nathan2331]

 

 

Obviously, simply drafting the NBA's next superstar isn't the way to get off the lottery treadmill.  You actually have to build a team, and the tanking philosophy is completely incompatible with proper team building.

 

Completely incompatible? Maxing out mediocre talent is what's incompatible with proper team building. Smart drafting along with good free agency moves and a good head coach can get you places. It remains to be seen how good Schlenk is, but you cannot make up a scenario where resigning Millsap makes us contender. We were trending downwards on the treadmill, it was time to hit the reset button and you know it. I don't like being one of the worst teams in the league, but if it gives us a chance to draft a player that can change the franchise, we've got to take it.

[Buzzard]

22 minutes ago, AHF said:

If we were in the West and had resigned Millsap, we wouldn't even be in the conversation for potential playoff spots (I don't think we'd have a prayer in the East with a hurt Millsap this season either).  We'd be wondering which lottery pick we will get just like today except we'd have the satisfaction/dissatisfaction that Charlotte Hornets fans enjoy today.  Last year we would have been 8th in the West. 

We would have missed the playoffs entirely in 2014, 2013, 2011, 2009, and 2008.  Being in the East over the last decade gives us a bit of an inflated sense of how good we were during all these years we spent hovering around and usually slightly above .500 with zero chance of contending.

I could not agree more. Our best team talent wise was probably the 2012 - 2013 Season. That was JJ's last year and Korvers first with us.

My bad, JJ was gone in 12-13.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Buzzard

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

Completely incompatible? Maxing out mediocre talent is what's incompatible with proper team building. Smart drafting along with good free agency moves and a good head coach can get you places. It remains to be seen how good Schlenk is, but you cannot make up a scenario where resigning Millsap makes us contender. We were trending downwards on the treadmill, it was time to hit the reset button and you know it. I don't like being one of the worst teams in the league, but if it gives us a chance to draft a player that can change the franchise, we've got to take it.

Ah, the franchise savior fallacy.  It is the central theme in why this is a foolish strategy to take.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/hoop-dreams/358627/

Quote

Turnarounds aren’t a one-man job in the NBA, either. Bad teams aren’t one great player away from greatness. They’re one great player away from mediocrity. Almost every championship team going back three decades had not one but three above-average starters. To amend Buffett’s construction: when you bring a successful college player onto a bad pro team, it’s the reputation of the team that stays intact.

In basketball and in business, big changes are sometimes warranted. But too often, splashy moves are made because they’re splashy—and because making one big bet is easier than making lots of small, hard decisions. The big lie about tanking is that it’s a prudent long-term strategy, when in fact it’s just another get-rich-quick scheme. It invites fans to see spectacular failure as a kind of trampoline that will catch teams at their nadir and launch them into the stratosphere. The truth is boring and simple. In the short term, average teams are more likely to become good, because they’re already closer to being good. The rampant fear in the NBA that mediocrity is a perpetual purgatory elides that crucial detail about purgatory: it’s closer to heaven than the alternative.

 

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Ah, the franchise savior fallacy.  It is the central theme in why this is a foolish strategy to take.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/hoop-dreams/358627/

 

Article published in 2014.  Teams that lost a ton of games and deliberately build through the lottery win the 2015, 2016 and 2017 championships.

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Article published in 2014.  Teams that lost a ton of games and deliberately build through the lottery win the 2015, 2016 and 2017 championships.

Ah, the other myth about how those championship teams were built.  "They built their team's completely through the lottery."

No they didn't.  They added their key championship pieces by adding veterans in free agency.  Golden State doesn't win the first without adding Andre Iguodala and Andrew Bogut.  Cleveland doesn't get off the lottery treadmill without LeBron's sentimentality for Cleveland.

[JSmooooove]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Ah, the other myth about how those championship teams were built.  "They built their team's completely through the lottery."

No they didn't.  They added their key championship pieces by adding veterans in free agency.  Golden State doesn't win the first without adding Andre Iguodala and Andrew Bogut.  Cleveland doesn't get off the lottery treadmill without LeBron's sentimentality for Cleveland.

LeBron doesn't go back to Cleveland if they weren't on the lottery treadmill in the first place. If they still had Mo Williams and Varejao as their stars instead of tanking for top picks you think Lebron would have went back? LMFAO!!!

Edited April 6, 2018 by JSmooooove

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Ah, the other myth about how those championship teams were built.  "They built their team's completely through the lottery."

No they didn't.  They added their key championship pieces by adding veterans in free agency.  Golden State doesn't win the first without adding Andre Iguodala and Andrew Bogut.  Cleveland doesn't get off the lottery treadmill without LeBron's sentimentality for Cleveland.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, JSmooooove said:

LeBron doesn't go back to Cleveland if they weren't on the lottery treadmill in the first place. If they still had Mo Williams and Varejao as their stars instead of tanking for top picks you think Lebron would have went back? LMFAO!!!

LOL!  LeBron was always going back to Cleveland.  They were bad because he left, not because they gutted the team of capable veterans.  They didn't have capable veterans when he left.  They had stacked the team with his buddies, who all sucked at that point in their careers.  LeBron didn't go to Cleveland because of Kyrie Irving.  They hate each other's guts.  He went back to Cleveland for sentimental reasons and also felt that this gave him another opportunity to build his own team.  

[Peoriabird]

So @KB21 is bird dogging Minnesota since he can't desparge Philadelphia lol!

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

So @KB21 is bird dogging Minnesota since he can't desparge Philadelphia lol!

Philadelphia still proves my point, and it is really mind boggling to see how people still give them adulation considering how long it has taken them to climb out of the hole the dug for themselves, particularly coming from someone who believes that now the tanking season is over, we can get back to competing for the playoffs.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, KB21 said:

LOL!  LeBron was always going back to Cleveland.  They were bad because he left, not because they gutted the team of capable veterans.  They didn't have capable veterans when he left.  They had stacked the team with his buddies, who all sucked at that point in their careers.  LeBron didn't go to Cleveland because of Kyrie Irving.  They hate each other's guts.  He went back to Cleveland for sentimental reasons and also felt that this gave him another opportunity to build his own team.  

That is full of it.  He wasn't going back there until he saw they had built up the talent to win with him in the mix.  And the reason he chose then to leave it that he saw Bosh and Wade going over the hill.

[JSmooooove]

9 minutes ago, KB21 said:

LOL!  LeBron was always going back to Cleveland.  They were bad because he left, not because they gutted the team of capable veterans.  They didn't have capable veterans when he left.  They had stacked the team with his buddies, who all sucked at that point in their careers.  LeBron didn't go to Cleveland because of Kyrie Irving.  They hate each other's guts.  He went back to Cleveland for sentimental reasons and also felt that this gave him another opportunity to build his own team.  

He left in the first place because he didn't have enough help around him to win. Once he left, they were able to acquire top picks. Once they had those assets, Lebron knew he could go back and actually have a chance to win. I know this. You know this. Everyone knows this. 

[KB21]

Just now, AHF said:

That is full of it.  He wasn't going back there until he saw they had built up the talent to win with him in the mix.  And the reason he chose then to leave it that he saw Bosh and Wade going over the hill.

Actually, the idea that Cleveland had built up the talent level that he could win with is the idea that is full of it.  Man,  He must have been excited about the opportunity to play with Anthony Bennett.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So @KB21 is bird dogging Minnesota since he can't desparge Philadelphia lol!

He will keep dogging Philly until time ends.  They are in year 5 of their rebuild and if they win a ring in year 8 he will say it took them too long and it doesn't count.

[AHF]

Just now, KB21 said:

Actually, the idea that Cleveland had built up the talent level that he could win with is the idea that is full of it.  Man,  He must have been excited about the opportunity to play with Anthony Bennett.

He wanted to play with Irving, Thompson and a vet All-Star that they team would get when they flipped their lottery pick.  And he knew that they could flip other guys like Dion Waiters for more vet assets as they moved along.  That team had talent and tradeable assets to build around him and that is the only reason he went there.

Why do you think he is looking at potentially leaving again?  The talent level has dipped and they no longer have those assets, just a lot of underperforming vets.

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

He wanted to play with Irving, Thompson and a vet All-Star that they team would get when they flipped their lottery pick.  And he knew that they could flip other guys like Dion Waiters for more vet assets as they moved along.  That team had talent and tradeable assets to build around him and that is the only reason he went there.

Why do you think he is looking at potentially leaving again?  The talent level has dipped and they no longer have those assets, just a lot of underperforming vets.

He's looking to leave now because he did what he sat out to do, and the real reason he went back to Cleveland.  He lead his hometown team to a championship.  In any of the previous three years, you remove LeBron from that team and Cleveland misses the playoffs completely.  That's with all that lottery capital they built up by losing.  They would still be losing.

[AHF]

LeBron was drafted.  Felt he didn't have the talent to win a ring and left to join with 2 All-Stars (Wade and Bosh) who he thought could get him there.  Bailed when the talent started to dry up and joined a team with 2 All-Stars (Irving and Love) who he thought would get him there.  Looking at bailing now when the talent has started to dry up.  There is no coincidence in this pattern.  LeBron wants to win above everything else.  If Cleveland had the talent, he would not consider leaving now.