The John Collins suspension (and other thoughts)

[thecampster]

The Atlanta Hawks started 2-3 this season. then John Collins got suspended.

The Hawks went 4-21 in his absence and lost the following 2 when he got back to boot, starting the season 6-26.

Since that time they have gone 11-15.

Depending on how you look at it...the Hawks, before the emergence of Reddish, before the trade for Capela, Skal and Teague were a 13-18 team or a 34 win team.

 

I'm still teetering on anger and forgiveness for Collins over the banned substance thing. I hate tanking. I hate the rebuild. I like our players but I hate how we got here. We could have made the playoffs this year. Had we dropped that 60 million on players and not expiring contracts we could have had a decent season. We were very lucky Trae hasn't gotten hurt. We were very lucky the rooks played as much as they did without major injury. But I can't help thinking about the Collins suspension and the chickenbleep tank tear down and wonder what could have been this season.

 

[macdaddy]

It's been a struggle but we were borderline playoffs if all had gone well.  Our guys have learned a lot.  We've acquired some talent.  Having another high pick could be a valuable trade piece if we don't use it.    No matter what this year was about setting up for next year and a lot has gone right.  Trae is a bonafide star, Collins has established as a legit 20/10 guy despite missing half the season.  Cam has grown and is showing signs of what we all hoped he would be.   We are solid at center, solid at PG and SG.  Adding some vet talent and shooting at the 3 and 4 and next season looks real good.  

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I understand that we want to see progress and to get our guys some playoff experience, but all I hear with "let's make the playoffs as an 8th seed" ish is "let get back on the treadmill". There is no worse place to be in sports than stuck in the middle.

[Sothron]

I am glad we aren't making the playoffs this year. We aren't ready for that yet. We need more talent before we are hopping back on the playoff treadmill.

It wasn't until Travis saw our roster was completely broken that he made changes to it. There's no way we get Capela otherwise. We can go into next season with our core plus the lottery pick and Capela added to that. NEXT season health permitting is when we should make a serious playoff push.

[REHawksFan]

19 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

I understand that we want to see progress and to get our guys some playoff experience, but all I hear with "let's make the playoffs as an 8th seed" ish is "let get back on the treadmill". There is no worse place to be in sports than stuck in the middle.

Not sure how being an 8 seed in year 2 of the rebuild equates to treadmill. You make that statement as if anyone at the top of the draft is worth having for the future or is a game changer. I don't see it.

Take away Vince skewing the thing and the Hawks, I think, are the youngest, least experienced team in the NBA. There's a CHASM of difference between them and a team like the Pistons or even Magic being stuck in the 8 seed. Youth matters and getting them experience in the playoffs is the next evolutionary step in this rebuild. I'd LOVE for them to make the playoffs this year. It would give Trae and John valuable experience for the coming years when the supporting cast is ready to help out in the playoffs. 

[Lurker]

If Collins doesn't get suspended, you probably have a few more wins but not too many (one that comes to mind is that Portland game but I think it's on the side of a handful and not a lot). I think there might be some of what was going on in 18/19 again, like I alluded to as a possibility, teams deciding to blow off this team after a dumpster fire November, and this time bled into December some as well (and I believe we have a prime example that happened on Saturday that burnt that team).

You can still look at the decisions made in the offseason and wonder, especially with the weakness of the East this year and a weak draft. I think playoff experience, even if it's a quick trip, would probably be more valuable than another high-lotto prospect outside of trade purposes, depending on what you do if you do a trade. 

[NBASupes]

We are clearly a better team with John. Without him, we barely had guys worth a win. With John, he's worth at least 2-3 wins and he prevents guys worth nothing from getting more mins. He's a massive help.

[thecampster]

It isn't just Collins but that wasted 62 million in Parsons, Turner, Crabbe that just ate up our roster without playing meaningful minutes.

The 3 of them combined for 850 minutes this season of our so far 14,000 minutes.  

They are 6.1% of our minutes played but were 56.9% of our cap.  Of course we sucked once Collins went down.

 

I outlined a number of ways we could have turned that cap into meaningful players pre/post draft and I'll do it again this year but Had they put 40 million of that money into quality talent to put around Trae and John, we could be having a very different conversation right now.  39 wins in the EC right now gets you the 7th seed. 53 wins is the 4th. It still feels like cheating how we did this rebuild and although I love our young players....GAH!

[High5]

We’re in a much better spot moving forward because of the route Schlenk took. Rebuilds require patience. Teams shoot themselves in the foot all the time trying run before they can walk. 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

5 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Not sure how being an 8 seed in year 2 of the rebuild equates to treadmill. You make that statement as if anyone at the top of the draft is worth having for the future or is a game changer. I don't see it.

Take away Vince skewing the thing and the Hawks, I think, are the youngest, least experienced team in the NBA. There's a CHASM of difference between them and a team like the Pistons or even Magic being stuck in the 8 seed. Youth matters and getting them experience in the playoffs is the next evolutionary step in this rebuild. I'd LOVE for them to make the playoffs this year. It would give Trae and John valuable experience for the coming years when the supporting cast is ready to help out in the playoffs. 

I'd rather have a top 10 pick than to be swept in the first round. Draft picks can be used for more than drafting prospects. Teams like Cleveland, Detroit, New York, Orlando, or Charlotte covet a top pick and we can use a great pick to trade down in the draft. All four of those teams need a PG for the future and this draft is loaded with them (and they're stupid franchises that would jump on a top pick in this draft). Trade down, pick up another prospect, and continue growing toward being a contender. The Brooklyn pick helped in facilitating the Capela trade... If we get to our pick in this draft and nobody we want is there, we should trade down and pick up a role player for the bench. Vince is retiring and I don't believe Teague will be brought back... we have roster spots to fill in a weak FAncy.

[REHawksFan]

32 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

I'd rather have a top 10 pick than to be swept in the first round. Draft picks can be used for more than drafting prospects. Teams like Cleveland, Detroit, New York, Orlando, or Charlotte covet a top pick and we can use a great pick to trade down in the draft. All four of those teams need a PG for the future and this draft is loaded with them (and they're stupid franchises that would jump on a top pick in this draft). Trade down, pick up another prospect, and continue growing toward being a contender. The Brooklyn pick helped in facilitating the Capela trade... If we get to our pick in this draft and nobody we want is there, we should trade down and pick up a role player for the bench. Vince is retiring and I don't believe Teague will be brought back... we have roster spots to fill in a weak FAncy.

I see your point on trading the pick. Of course, that requires there to be at least one other team that actually values a player in the draft. We'll see I guess.

But you didn't answer my question as to how making the playoff this year as an 8 seed would result in being a treadmill team.  Do you really think a Top 10 Pick asset is the difference for this team between a title contender and a treadmill team?  That's hard to fathom for me. I think this team as constituted (once a little older and seasoned) should be much more than a treadmill team even without adding any draft capital.  Just don't buy that there would be any downside to the team starting to play better, winning a bunch of games, and squeaking into the playoffs this year. I think that would be incredibly useful for this bunch of players. 

 

 

[benhillboy]

I would never claim to have the patience a good GM needs, yall better than me.  All I know is a couple inches disappeared from his vert.  Still great, but they ain’t Early Blake Griffin-stupid anymore.  Thankfully in the short term it hasn’t affected his shot blocking (super straight with 1.7), field goal percentage, and dunk total/ frequency.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

15 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I see your point on trading the pick. Of course, that requires there to be at least one other team that actually values a player in the draft. We'll see I guess.

But you didn't answer my question as to how making the playoff this year as an 8 seed would result in being a treadmill team.  Do you really think a Top 10 Pick asset is the difference for this team between a title contender and a treadmill team?  That's hard to fathom for me. I think this team as constituted (once a little older and seasoned) should be much more than a treadmill team even without adding any draft capital.  Just don't buy that there would be any downside to the team starting to play better, winning a bunch of games, and squeaking into the playoffs this year. I think that would be incredibly useful for this bunch of players. 

 

 

No, I do not think a player in this draft class will make a difference, but I do believe being an 8th seed this year could stymie our growth. Even as a weak draft class, I'd rather have the 8th pick over the 15th. What if a top team gets eliminated in the first round and starts thinking they need to restructure things? What if Portland, Washington, or the Suns miss the playoffs and do as well? I think a package of Huerter + top 10 pick could net us a great rotation player. We could use more talent coming off the bench and we need a backup PG and PF. I think defensive-minded starting SG would work better with our rotation too especially with Trae being a liability. Either promote Cam to starter or trade for Beal, DeRozan, McCollum, or Oladipo this summer.

We need to be a playoff team next season... as at least a 6th seed. If we are to be major players in 2021 free agency, we need to show that this team is worth signing on for. Plus, Trae will be in his third season, Collins his fourth, and Capela his seventh. Time to start making some noise.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

No, I do not think a player in this draft class will make a difference, but I do believe being an 8th seed this year could stymie our growth. Even as a weak draft class, I'd rather have the 8th pick over the 15th. What if a top team gets eliminated in the first round and starts thinking they need to restructure things? What if Portland, Washington, or the Suns miss the playoffs and do as well? I think a package of Huerter + top 10 pick could net us a great rotation player. We could use more talent coming off the bench and we need a backup PG and PF. I think defensive-minded starting SG would work better with our rotation too especially with Trae being a liability. Either promote Cam to starter or trade for Beal, DeRozan, McCollum, or Oladipo this summer.

We need to be a playoff team next season... as at least a 6th seed. If we are to be major players in 2021 free agency, we need to show that this team is worth signing on for. Plus, Trae will be in his third season, Collins his fourth, and Capela his seventh. Time to start making some noise.

Of that group only Oladipo is defensive minded, but I sdon;t trust his injury history. Beal used to be defensive mided  - not sure what happened this year, hopefully he can get back to that . Derozan nor McCollum are not defensive minded.

[JayBirdHawk]

We are better with John than without - but we still had no real Center and three very real scrub VETS that gave us NOTHING.

[Dnice]

 I thought we got rid of the scrub vets.. lol

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

We need to be a playoff team next season... as at least a 6th seed. If we are to be major players in 2021 free agency, we need to show that this team is worth signing on for. Plus, Trae will be in his third season, Collins his fourth, and Capela his seventh. Time to start making some noise.

you were the same dude that didn’t wanna make a championship run for like 7 years and thought that was the game plan. Now, you think it’s vital we get in the playoffs ASAP. 
 

Way to flip 180.  

[Buzzard]

I had higher hopes for our bench this season. I saw Turner, Crabbe, and Parker in a better light; I thought those three players would make for a decent bench going against other 2nd unit players. I was wrong but still think a veteran coach could have made better use of them.

Lets face it, our players and coach have a lot of learning to do. Next off season and season will be better. We will get a decent pick and sign some solid players. Hopefully things start to gel and these horrendous season starts will become a thing of the past.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

you were the same dude that didn’t wanna make a championship run for like 7 years and thought that was the game plan. Now, you think it’s vital we get in the playoffs ASAP. 
 

Way to flip 180.  

No, I said 5-6 years until we're contender status... I said 2-3 seasons to be making noise. It's illogical to think that a team will go from lottery team to contender during one offseason. Playoffs in 2021 will be two seasons by that time.

 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Of that group only Oladipo is defensive minded, but I sdon;t trust his injury history. Beal used to be defensive mided  - not sure what happened this year, hopefully he can get back to that . Derozan nor McCollum are not defensive minded.

Oladipo is the guy I want.... Beal is second. I only listed DMR and McCollum to list other possibilities.