Training Camp and Preseason 2020.

[BangHolman]

24 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

There are always other factors but we were a crappy team all year that was decidedly less crappy when JC was playing.   Hell we were 2-3 before his suspension.    It would be harder to argue that he didn't have an impact on winning last season than that he did.  

Again, that turn around also happened when Kevin returned, we traded for Teague (1/16), traded for Dedmon (2/5) and Cam surged after the All-Start break. I only say this to say, John wasn't the only factor. We haven't seen him contribute on a winning roster with talented depth yet, we've seen him be the 2nd best player on a sub-30 win team, lots of factors to that. Why pay him now? He's stood out among players that 1) should be on the end of a bench 2) shouldn't be in the NBA at all. With Gallo, Capela, and others, there's a good chance that John regresses statistically to a less expensive contract, but if he performs as the 2nd best player on this talented roster, he's worth the money. It's really not a knock on John to want to gather more data points before committing our future to him, Brandon Ingram still got his.

[kg01]

19 minutes ago, High5 said:

So now JC is worth 4/40? At this rate we'll be able to keep him for whatever Bembry got. 

Eggsactly.  It's how I know the Collins conversation with my guy supes isn't a real one.

Even if someone thinks Collins is hot garbage, there's no way his "market" is $10mil/year.

[aali34]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

In what world does JC get 10 per? Role players get 10 per in the NBA. I'd make an avatar bet with anyone that JC gets at least 20 per, but probably more.

If Julius Randle got 20 per year, than John is definitly getting that. 

[RedDawg#8]

1. I really hate the Josh Smith comparisons Supes. Maturity and Professionalism are miles apart when you compare the 2. JC is a smart player who only comes across as limited to guys like you because he knows how maximize his strengths and not do too much unlike JSmoove who tried to do too much despite putting in half the work as a guy like Collins. 

2. By the winning logic, max players like Devin Booker, Brandon Ingram, and eventually our very own Trae Young didnt/dont deserve max deals because their bloated stats come on losing teams.

3. Whether its counting stats or analytics, JC is a pure stud. You simply cant discount his level of production AND efficiency, despite not having to demand the ball. That is exactly the kind of player that you NEED. You dont find that everyday.

4. Everything is about Trae at the end of the day. Trae should be highest paid on this roster, Trae should have most years in his deal. BUT that doesn't mean JC cant still get his. A 4 year deal just south of 25 per is what he has earned and what his value is.

5. Market is circumstantial. Teams are strapped for cash and the league is losing money, which means they are not as willing to bank on growing salary caps to cover up for contract mistakes. Teams are being more judicious in overall spending and the guys who would normally get over paid are joining contenders for a discount and keeping it moving. That does not define the true value of a player. Thats just the marketplace, today. If John signs for 24 mil a year, that would be big in todays marketplace but his value would still hold over the next 4 years. 3rd contract is where you have to be scared. Thats true for every player.

Edited December 17, 2020 by RedDawg#8

[Carmine]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

If Julius Randle got 20 per year, than John is definitly getting that. 

Yep that figure is 'fair' and 'reasonable'. I'm not a fan of when owners chime in on stuff like this but it's good to know Hawks FO is seeing this in a similar light to me & not rushing to max JC. If he earns it fair & square this season, great. No reason to throw out max contract's prematurely with our young talent (Cam/Hunter) on the rise.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

1. I really hate the Josh Smith comparisons Supes. Maturity and Professionalism are miles apart when you compare the 2. JC is a smart player who only comes across as limited to guys like you because he knows how maximize his strengths and not do too much unlike JSmoove who tried to do too much despite putting in half the work as a guy like Collins. 

2. By the winning logic, max players like Devin Booker, Brandon Ingram, and eventually our very own Trae Young didnt/dont deserve max deals because their bloated stats come on losing teams.

3. Whether its counting stats or analytics, JC is a pure stud. You simply cant discount his level of production AND efficiency, despite not having to demand the ball. That is exactly the kind of player that you NEED. You dont find that everyday.

4. Everything is about Trae at the end of the day. Trae should be highest paid on this roster, Trae should have most years in his deal. BUT that doesn't mean JC cant still get his. A 4 year deal just south of 25 per is what he has earned and what his value is.

5. Market is circumstantial. Teams are strapped for cash and the league is losing money, which means they are not as willing to bank on growing salary caps to cover up for contract mistakes. Teams are being more judicious in overall spending and the guys who would normally get over paid are joining contenders for a discount and keeping it moving. That does not define the true value of a player. Thats just the marketplace, today. If John signs for 24 mil a year, that would be big in todays marketplace but his value would still hold over the next 4 years. 3rd contract is where you have to be scared. Thats true for every player.

1. Josh Smith comparision has nothing to do with their similarities or lack thereof and everything to do with how Hawks fans see them compared to their reality at this exact stage of their careers. The minute anyone talks sense about JC, you guys go into stats this and stats that. Fans couldn't see the forest from the trees with both players. I clearly like Collins more than Smith but I think believe best case outcome is the same.

Being a long term 6th man on a contender. They can start and help pretenders but if you want to win, both are reserves. 

2. Those players have their own issues to deal with which is how valuable are they to being building blocks on a contender. All of them have to deal with are they are real superstar or are they just stars. So yes, those players have to deal with BS all of them time as we see here with Trae. The one thing that is not questionable is their impact on being a franchise player. If you got one of them, you pay them and hope they become superstars as their production indicates. 

3. He's extremely productive but he's in the extremely productive but don't mean shit category. I know Hawks fans have in a different category but his production don't mean shit. Draft prospects like Toppin scoffed when you bring up JC as a comparison. Guys like Mike Schmitz exclusively look at him as a rim runner with shooting potential. Seth Partlow rates him on the same exact tier as Harrell. His WAR was average. RAPTOR was a negative. The Hawks are going always from him on PnR heavy plays in favor of Capela who's an elite screener. Tell me what you see that I am not seeing. I watch JC every moment, what do you see that I am not?

4. Trae is important but so is long term roster building. Getting JC committed to a reasonable deal is critical as it is critical with Kevin. With two way wings, when they are productive, you gotta pay so I can't say the same for Cam or Hunter. Those two have a lot of positional versatility which is critical in the modern NBA. Kevin will have a bigger market than JC. Teams are coveting what he is more than what JC is.

5. JC is not what you think he is on the open market.

[RedDawg#8]

32 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. Josh Smith comparision has nothing to do with their similarities or lack thereof and everything to do with how Hawks fans see them compared to their reality at this exact stage of their careers. The minute anyone talks sense about JC, you guys go into stats this and stats that. Fans couldn't see the forest from the trees with both players. I clearly like Collins more than Smith but I think believe best case outcome is the same.

Being a long term 6th man on a contender. They can start and help pretenders but if you want to win, both are reserves. 

2. Those players have their own issues to deal with which is how valuable are they to being building blocks on a contender. All of them have to deal with are they are real superstar or are they just stars. So yes, those players have to deal with BS all of them time as we see here with Trae. The one thing that is not questionable is their impact on being a franchise player. If you got one of them, you pay them and hope they become superstars as their production indicates. 

3. He's extremely productive but he's in the extremely productive but don't mean shit category. I know Hawks fans have in a different category but his production don't mean shit. Draft prospects like Toppin scoffed when you bring up JC as a comparison. Guys like Mike Schmitz exclusively look at him as a rim runner with shooting potential. Seth Partlow rates him on the same exact tier as Harrell. His WAR was average. RAPTOR was a negative. The Hawks are going always from him on PnR heavy plays in favor of Capela who's an elite screener. Tell me what you see that I am not seeing. I watch JC every moment, what do you see that I am not?

4. Trae is important but so is long term roster building. Getting JC committed to a reasonable deal is critical as it is critical with Kevin. With two way wings, when they are productive, you gotta pay so I can't say the same for Cam or Hunter. Those two have a lot of positional versatility which is critical in the modern NBA. Kevin will have a bigger market than JC. Teams are coveting what he is more than what JC is.

5. JC is not what you think he is on the open market.

Whats the goal post, is it that he is a 6th man on a real contender masquerading as a starter for us? Because thats a different argument than if he is worth a near max level extension. 

You say Josh but what about Joe, what about Al Horford? All of those guys got theirs too and turned out that they were nothing more than role players on TRUE contenders. So why keep referencing Josh in the scenario? That entire era proved to be pretenders ultimately. So honestly, why pay anyone, ever, if that's the case?

This is business at the end of the day. Acquiring assets is only one part of the equation. You have to secure them or flip them. Or both. JC can net us something of value but we still need to secure him to do so. 
His value is only being driven down by those who are trying poach him from us later. That's it. Everybody wants JC,  even according to your guy. They all want us to fumble his negotiations so they can slide in. If we low ball him, somebody will pay him more. Watch.

JC is getting 20mil per AT WORST from somebody, no matter how you feel about it.

[kg01]

Can we all just agree that Collins is gonna end up getting more than what some think but is also not getting a max-level extension?

I just want us to stop fighting.  IOW ...

 

[aali34]

I don't see how JC isn't valuable. I would think players scoring 20 ppg with high inside-out efficiency on low usage are a rarity, especially at 23 years old. 

He''s shown some glimpses of improvement in his playmaking and had a couple plays on the block where he scored without assistance(and some where missed). I think his defense will probably be the slowest to improve, but I do think he will become capable sooner than later. His shooting is legit, he just needs to up his output. He's only 2 months older than Deandre. I don't think he's a finished product.

That being said, I wouldn't pay him a max on speculation. I'd pay based on what he's shown the past 2 seasons and take growth into account. I don't think he'd be making a mistake betting on himself either. Nerlens Noel is a bad comparison in my opinion.

[RedDawg#8]

Just now, kg01 said:

Can we all just agree that Collins is gonna end up getting more than what some think but is also not getting a max-level extension?

I just want us to stop fighting.  IOW ...

 

Lol that's what it boils down too honestly.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, aali34 said:

I don't see how JC isn't valuable. I would think players scoring 20 ppg with high inside-out efficiency on low usage are a rarity, especially at 23 years old. 

He''s shown some glimpses of improvement in his playmaking and had a couple plays on the block where he scored without assistance(and some where missed). I think his defense will probably be the slowest to improve, but I do think he will become capable sooner than later. His shooting is legit, he just needs to up his output. He's only 2 months older than Deandre. I don't think he's a finished product.

That being said, I wouldn't pay him a max on speculation. I'd pay based on what he's shown the past 2 seasons and take growth into account. I don't think he'd be making a mistake betting on himself either. Nerlens Noel is a bad comparison in my opinion.

It's a terrible, biased comp if we're being honest.

I think Collins, if he stays, will be on a deal similar to Sabonis.  If he leaves, he'll get more but it'll be a mistake (both for him and the team that pays him).

[NBASupes]

Just now, RedDawg#8 said:

Whats the goal post, is it that he is a 6th man on a real contender masquerading as a starter for us? Because thats a different argument than if he is worth a near max level extension. 

You say Josh but what about Joe, what about Al Horford? All of those guys got theirs too and turned out that they were nothing more than role players on TRUE contenders. So why keep referencing Josh in the scenario? That entire era proved to be pretenders ultimately. So honestly, why pay anyone, ever, if that's the case?

This is business at the end of the day. Acquiring assets is only one part of the equation. You have to secure them or flip them. Or both. JC can net us something of value but we still need to secure him to do so. 
His value is only being driven down by those who are trying poach him from us later. That's it. Everybody wants JC,  even according to your guy. They all want us to fumble his negotiations so they can slide in. If we low ball him, somebody will pay him more. Watch.

JC is getting 20mil per AT WORST from somebody, no matter how you feel about it.

Montrezl Harrell is the perfect example. He's a 6th man for a contender. Even when he was on a pretender, he was a superstar 6th man. That's JC's ideal role in the modern NBA. It has everything to do with his salary. The value for a 6th man big isn't that great. That's why he's pitching that he wants to be a HOF and someone that's a legend but I don't see it. I see him ultimately as an elite 6th man. I felt the same way about Josh Smith when he was going to his prime and then eventually in his prime.

No matter what, JC will always be productive. That's unquestionable. I also don't believe he should be traded. We aren't going to get shit for him. If the open market doesn't value him highly, the trade market won't value him at all. Ultimately, Kevin is the asset that's going to be the hardest to figure out. He's the one teams covet but he's not a two way wing to where he's urgent for us to resign. We might end up losing him and the option of fair and reasonable might not be available to Kev. His prototype is too coveted. We never had a contender built in Atlanta which is why we were always contenders. Even right now, we aren't contenders but we got all of the right pieces, we just need to see how it works and who can emerge into a high end role for a contender. That includes Trae. Gallo and Capela are the only ones I am confident about at this moment. The youngins have to prove it and they have the time to do so. 

Joe and Al have clear high end roles on contenders. That's why Al's lead two teams to the ECFs and was the best player on all of them by a mile. His impact is special. Joe is a clear #2 option on a contender. He just never got the opportunity in his prime as he was wasting his best years in Atlanta getting paid handsomely. If he stayed in PHX, he probably would have one or two rings and seen in a different light right now. 

JC ain't netting us shit bro. Maybe a mid to late 1st at best. That's nothing to us. He more valuable to us than them. No matter what, he's going to end up in the same role he will eventually end up on here. Brooklyn strongly felt Dinwiddle for JC was a great offer. That should tell you A LOT! Both players on the open market will get about the same amount of money. Maybe more for Dinwiddle as he can play PG which is a need position in the modern NBA. 

Everyone wants JC? At what cost? Everyone wants a lot of our players, but at what cost? 

That's the Hawksquawk delusion speaking, not the open market. With Smoove, we had posters who felt he should get the max for that era and it was disrespectful to do otherwise. Once again, when your team has been a loser, you don't know what winning players look like and when you do, you still don't realize it 100%. You just know he isn't as good as you thought but in reality, he never was. 

[bleachkit]

8 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Can we all just agree that Collins is gonna end up getting more than what some think but is also not getting a max-level extension?

I just want us to stop fighting.  IOW ...

 

Could you imagine if I said JC is getting 10 per lol. I love how you go extra soft on Supes ridiculous takes 

[aali34]

@NBASupes Do you think it's possible that John becomes a player worthy of a max? And if so how likely.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I don't see how JC isn't valuable. I would think players scoring 20 ppg with high inside-out efficiency on low usage are a rarity, especially at 23 years old. 

He''s shown some glimpses of improvement in his playmaking and had a couple plays on the block where he scored without assistance(and some where missed). I think his defense will probably be the slowest to improve, but I do think he will become capable sooner than later. His shooting is legit, he just needs to up his output. He's only 2 months older than Deandre. I don't think he's a finished product.

That being said, I wouldn't pay him a max on speculation. I'd pay based on what he's shown the past 2 seasons and take growth into account. I don't think he'd be making a mistake betting on himself either. Nerlens Noel is a bad comparison in my opinion.

FOs in the modern NBA knows how to read players. He would have been a no brainer to be paid in 2004, hell, 2014 but teams know what works and doesn't work in 2020 in terms of impact and winning long term. 

Glimpses of improvement shouldn't get you a major contract. That's how you end up with overpays. We gave Dennis that contract on glimpses and regretted it instantly. 

He would be making a massive mistake. Don't get yourself exposed in the playoffs. If Gallo ends up taking most of your mins. You will look dumb. Capela been one of the most productive playoff bigs in the last 5 years. JC could easily end up playing himself. He's the 3rd best big on our roster and Hunter can play your position. Don't play yourself. 

Nerlens Noel isn't a comparison. It's basically saying Noel turned down an overpay of a 70 million dollar contract thinking he should get the max. Ended up getting the vet min for the next four years. He played himself. That's all it means. Not that JC is Noel or that he's comparable to Noel. 

[NBASupes]

Just now, aali34 said:

@NBASupes Do you think it's possible that John becomes a player worthy of a max? And if so how likely.

No, 6'9 tweeners who can't defend the perimeter and can't create or playmake is extremely limited in today's NBA. No matter how good they are otherwise, they are not seen as starters in winning situations. I think the big question you really need to ask me is would JC be seen as a max player in 2004 or 2010? Yes, he would. Without question he would. He's extremely productive and before the spacing/versatility era, it was all about raw stats and the analytics we had at that time favored players like JC heavily. Look at Whiteside in the mid 2010's. He got paid paid. His production and analytics improved last year, he just signed for the vet's min with the Kings and no one was really interested. 

Teams know what they know now. They aren't fooled by players like JC. Only people fooled by players like JC is John Hollinger and he's really down on JC when you ask him about JC. He's like, meh. I get why fans like him. He would be considered a franchise player in 2008 and he would deserve it. You could win spamming PnRs all day in 2008. He's easily better than Carlos Boozer. The modern NBA changed what you need to be. Big wings with good standing reaches and wingspans are starting to be the new PFs and SF/PF are becoming interchangable.

Back in 2008, a PF is a small center in today's NBA outside of the special ones like KG, Dirk, and Duncan who are modern more than the norm back then. He's old school basically. His style of PF is still productive and useful. He's not completely washed like the back to the basket centers who used to be very valuable in the 2010s and late 2000s. Those guys are now 2nd rounders and undrafted. They are now considered change of pace bigs.  

The reason so many Hawks fans here love JC is because he's a franchise player but for another decade. Sadly, not for this one. 

[aali34]

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He would be making a massive mistake. Don't get yourself exposed in the playoffs. If Gallo ends up taking most of your mins. You will look dumb.

I don't think he'd be losing minutes to Gallo considering Gallo had an up and down playoff performance in the bubble and has had as many bad games as good in the post-season. Capela has also been unplayable in certain situations with the Rockets in the past(GSW in particular), though I don't think that would be as much of an issue in the eastern conference. 

You can make the argument those two have been exposed in the playoffs to be honest. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by aali34

[kg01]

Just now, bleachkit said:

Could you imagine if I said JC is getting 10 per lol. I love how you go extra soft on Supes ridiculous takes 

Are you tryna sic people on supes?

We've all gone after supes from time to time so I'm not feeling your outrage.

[aali34]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No, 6'9 tweeners who can't defend the perimeter and can't create or playmake is extremely limited in today's NBA. No matter how good they are otherwise, they are not seen as starters in winning situations.

So you believe he won't improve in those areas or that he's shown all that he can be?

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I don't think he'd be losing minutes to Gallo considering Gallo had an up and down playoff performance in the bubble and has had as many bad games as good in the post-season. Capela has also been unplayable in certain situations with the Rockets in the past(GSW in particular), though I don't that would be as much of an issue in the eastern conference. 

You can make the argument those two have been exposed in the playoffs to be honest. 

You can finger point issues each player has had in the playoffs over the last 5 seasons but Capela is ultimately one of the most productive and impactful bigs via metrics in the playoffs. His play v. Utah and Denver speaks values. GS would go to the Hampton 5 lineup with KD at the 5. Of course that would put Capela in a tough spot. Guarding one of the best players in NBA history who's a wing who's longer and taller than you as a big man isn't ideal. Draymond living on the perimeter and obviously, not being able to create your own shot is a clear issue Clint has had in the past. Let's see if he's improved on it. Let's tip our hat to Draymond instead on bash Clint for that. Draymond work in the playoffs speaks volumes. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by NBASupes