Training Camp and Preseason 2020.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, aali34 said:

So you believe he won't improve in those areas or that he's shown all that he can be?

He can improve, yes. The level he needs to be is just not feasible. He just doesn't have the right body type. For his body, he needs to be like Kuzma and defending big wings. That would make him a lot more valuable long term. That would actually change his outlook and put him in a modern range but I seen Ersan constantly take him off the dribble. JC just don't have the instincts needed on that end. You can't just learn it. You either have it or you don't. 

[aali34]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

He can improve, yes. The level he needs to be is just not feasible. He just doesn't have the right body type. For his body, he needs to be like Kuzma and defending big wings. That would make him a lot more valuable long term. That would actually change his outlook and put him in a modern range but I seen Ersan constantly take him off the dribble. JC just don't have the instincts needed on that end. You can't just learn it. You either have it or you don't. 

So you don't think he would  be a big part of the Hawks championship future? Would you extend him and trade him or as said earlier play him as a 6th man. Do you think he would be open to it? I don't.

[High5]

I don't think Supes is wrong about everything. JC is overrated by his boxscore numbers. A lot of people are trying to give him more money than he has earned. But saying he's worth 4/40 is the most absurd thing that has ever been posted on the Squawk. 

[bleachkit]

18 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Are you tryna sic people on supes?

We've all gone after supes from time to time so I'm not feeling your outrage.

No, but when it comes to opinions, you seem to care more about who's making the statement rather than what the statement is. 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, aali34 said:

So you don't think he would  be a big part of the Hawks championship future? Would you extend him and trade him or as said earlier play him as a 6th man. Do you think he would be open to it? I don't.

In the modern NBA, you need everyone, 1-10/1-8 to win a title. When you have a flaw at center, you could lose a series. See LA against Denver. They would have lost that series if they didn't have Dwight to guard Jokic. Everyone matters. Miami went to the finals off depth and execution. Milwaukee lost in the playoffs because their other starters weren't showing up and their depth didn't either. Depth is the new KING in today's NBA. So yes, he will play a BIG part in the Hawks championship future. 

I just don't think he realizes the role he will be in yet. He kinda reminds me mentally of Kyle Kuzma. He thinks he's much better than he is till he really has to win games. 

Resign him. Let him think he's a starter but once it's clear his best role is 6th man big when the metrics show us it's Gallo that's clearly better, he will have a lot of success long term. 

He isn't aware of where he is on a winning team because he's never been on a winning team. He will eventually. 

Trading him is useless. If his value isn't high on the open market, his trade value will mirror that. 

[aali34]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

In the modern NBA, you need everyone, 1-10/1-8 to win a title. When you have a flaw at center, you could lose a series. See LA against Denver. They would have lost that series if they didn't have Dwight to guard Jokic. Everyone matters. Miami went to the finals off depth and execution. Milwaukee lost in the playoffs because their other starters weren't showing up and their depth didn't either. Depth is the new KING in today's NBA. So yes, he will play a BIG part in the Hawks championship future. 

I just don't think he realizes the role he will be in yet. He kinda reminds me mentally of Kyle Kuzma. He thinks he's much better than he is till he really has to win games. 

Resign him. Let him think he's a starter but once it's clear his best role is 6th man big when the metrics show us it's Gallo that's clearly better, he will have a lot of success long term. 

He isn't aware of where he is on a winning team because he's never been on a winning team. He will eventually. 

Trading him is useless. If his value isn't high on the open market, his trade value will mirror that. 

Appreciate you explaining your point of view. I disagree in certain aspects but I understand where you are coming from.

[macdaddy]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I just don't think he realizes the role he will be in yet. He kinda reminds me mentally of Kyle Kuzma. He thinks he's much better than he is till he really has to win games. 

Resign him. Let him think he's a starter but once it's clear his best role is 6th man big when the metrics show us it's Gallo that's clearly better, he will have a lot of success long term. 

Travis and Gallo apparently aren't aware that Gallo is clearly better either.     Travis made it clear that Gallo is here to backup Collins.   That doesn't seem like a great negotiating strategy or helpful in showing JC his true value.  

[NBASupes]

Just now, macdaddy said:

Travis and Gallo apparently aren't aware that Gallo is clearly better either.     Travis made it clear that Gallo is here to backup Collins.   That doesn't seem like a great negotiating strategy or helpful in showing JC his true value.  

This might sound better to you than it actually is. You do realize, we have a season to play right? Gallo came here for a role, the salary that no one would dare match due to his age, and the fact that his mins will be well managed. 

Regardless of what we do with JC mins wise, Gallo is a 22-25 mpg max player at this stage of his career. JC would still be playing the bulk of the mins no matter what. 

[kg01]

21 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

No, but when it comes to opinions, you seem to care more about who's making the statement rather than what the statement is. 

Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true.

[terrell]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

And you think JC is? Gallo is the only PF on the roster that's proven to be a high impact player as a starter for playoff teams and the difference maker as well. The first thing I seen Orlando fans saying was, Gallo is too good to come off the bench and he's better than JC. These weren't bias fans. They have nothing against JC or for him. On this site, we are delusional when it comes to JC. That's fine, I remember it was the same way at the same stage for Josh Smith. By the end of the season, people finally was seeing what I been seeing and that's fine honestly because the only thing that matters is if the Hawks see it too. 

JC deserves enough respect not be be directly compared to Big O or Hunter at this stage but let's be clear. My post isn't saying, JC isn't wanted because he clearly is. He's no longer needed. He's a nice to have and you pay nice to haves accordingly. 

Neither player impacts winning. JC doesn't and Wood doesn't. Wood impact metrics mirror JCs in year 2. That said, I am not delusional, I know his game and I know he's not that damn valuable. 

You can overpay especially to showcase loyalty but if the market is 4/40 and Atlanta offers 4/55. That's an elite contract for your market rate. Now the issue is, JC might think his market is 4/120. In that case, JC is delusional. He is basically Nerlens Noel Jr.

No way John Collins thinks he's worth 4/120..lol. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by terrell

[JayBirdHawk]

38 minutes ago, High5 said:

I don't think Supes is wrong about everything. JC is overrated by his boxscore numbers. A lot of people are trying to give him more money than he has earned. But saying he's worth 4/40 is the most absurd thing that has ever been posted on the Squawk. 

I get the sentiment, and if you do a poll most isn't advocating a max deal. But seriously though, how many guys coming off rookie deals and getting extensions have actually 'earned' the money. 

The $4/40 is ridiculously certifiably absurd . John's caphold next season is $12 mil, Supes is advocating for less than that. 2020 is a strange year but c'mon Supes.

[AHF]

First, 4 / $40M?  Come on Supes! 

Second, I get that you make analogies to situations where you aren't trying to directly compare the games of JC and that other player but can I suggest that you pick someone better than him to make that comparison?  Every time you draw a connection between him and Smoove, Noel, and any number of obviously inferior players you trigger people and lose the point of your comparison.  

If you picked a player as good or better than him to make your comparison, it would help people be receptive to your points.  For many people (including me sometimes), it is hard to get past the seeming comparison to a blatantly subpar player.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Montrezl Harrell is the perfect example. He's a 6th man for a contender. Even when he was on a pretender, he was a superstar 6th man. 

How is he the perfect example? You really shouldn't be using Harrell as your example since you were very wrong in your assessment. Harrell is always what he has been - an energy guy off your bench, great in the PnR and not much else, not exceptional as a defender or rebounder, can't spread the floor.  If he can't use his 'energy' he's not effective since he's not skilled.

You tried to compare Harrell to Milsap (1st 3 years) as a bench player in Utah who excelled as a starter with the Hawks, saying he could be that starter for us at $22 million next to Capela. When questioned about the fit next to Capela you responded with 'Harrell is shooting 3s in the Drew League' when he hasn't shown any ability to shoot beyond 4 feet in the NBA. But he was a WAR warrior.

Yet you think JC is only worth $10 mil per.  SMH

[ATLHawks3]

Give JC 4/$100 million and call it a day. 

[High5]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I get the sentiment, and if you do a poll most isn't advocating a max deal. But seriously though, how many guys coming off rookie deals and getting extensions have actually 'earned' the money. 

The $4/40 is ridiculously certifiably absurd . John's caphold next season is $12 mil, Supes is advocating for less than that. 2020 is a strange year but c'mon Supes.

Yeah, I know these young players are often paid for what they're expected to do more than for what they've actually accomplished. I just mean he hasn't really shown to even have the foundation of a max player. Those guys have usually demonstrated some elite shot creation and/or two-way ability. And while you're right that most probably don't want to give him the max (or close to it), there are a fair number of Hawks fans I've seen on here, RealGM, and Reddit who seem fine with it. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by High5

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, High5 said:

Yeah, I know these young players are often paid for what they're expected to do more than for what they've actually accomplished. I just mean he hasn't really shown to even have the foundation of a max player. Those guys have usually demonstrated some elite shot creation and/or two-way ability. And while you're right that most probably don't want to give him the max (or close to it), there are a fair number of Hawks fans I've seen on here, RealGM, and Reddit who seem fine with it. 

My only discussion with JC on a max was a hypothetical discussion: if the choice was between paying Harrell $22 mil, Hayward $30 mil or paying JC a max of $27 million....I would choose to pay JC.

I've maintained JC's value falls in the 20% of the cap range. 

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

How is he the perfect example? You really shouldn't be using Harrell as your example since you were very wrong in your assessment. Harrell is always what he has been - an energy guy off your bench, great in the PnR and not much else, not exceptional as a defender or rebounder, can't spread the floor.  If he can't use his 'energy' he's not effective since he's not skilled.

You tried to compare Harrell to Milsap (1st 3 years) as a bench player in Utah who excelled as a starter with the Hawks, saying he could be that starter for us at $22 million next to Capela. When questioned about the fit next to Capela you responded with 'Harrell is shooting 3s in the Drew League' when he hasn't shown any ability to shoot beyond 4 feet in the NBA. But he was a WAR warrior.

Yet you think JC is only worth $10 mil per.  SMH

You are right. I did make that comparison and was obviously wrong. He proved in the playoffs, his defense wasn't good enough. I though it was during the regular season but the playoffs are a different monster. Metrics can easily lie and for Harrell, it did. 

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You are right. I did make that comparison and was obviously wrong. He proved in the playoffs, his defense wasn't good enough. I though it was during the regular season but the playoffs are a different monster. Metrics can easily lie and for Harrell, it did. 

Please keep this in mind for future purposes.

[thecampster]

Yawn!!! 

These threads are proof of why there are cap guys, press guys and talent evaluators...nobody is all things in an org.

 

[NBASupes]

31 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Please keep this in mind for future purposes.

His WAR in the playoffs was -2.0. So his regular season WAR was legit. Playoffs was legit underwhelming for the 2nd straight year

Likewise.