Official Game Thread: Nets at Hawks

[NBASupes]

@AHF, you think this would have a shot in hell of slowing down Trae Young?

 

 

[Atlantaholic]

8 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Did you forget that they lost or are you bought into that false narrative that it was all Simmons' fault?

JoeLLLL can score 50's for all I care.  Nobody else on that roster scares me, Harden included.  And, if you thought Simmons was a mental-short guy in the playoffs take a look at Harden's comparative numbers in the postseason.

The only player that scared me last year was Curry and #HeGone.

Ok, yea, they lost. We also had to comeback from 20+ point deficits in back to back games to beat them. We have no one on the team that can guard Embiid.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

@AHF, you think this would have a shot in hell of slowing down Trae Young?

 

 

@AHF, how would the Bulls or any team in the 90s slow down Trae with these rules?

[NBASupes]

There is about 50 players that you can't stop with yesterday's rules and how the game is being played. Its impossible to guard Trae Young in the illegal defense era

Edited April 4, 2022 by NBASupes

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I almost hearted this.. then I thought about it.   You make this assessment in a vacuum.   What I mean is that you ignore 3 pt shooting and  Fast breaking.   Maybe it's in a supplementary set of stats??

Let's Take Isiah Thomas vs. Steph Curry.

In one of Isiah's best years... 1984-1985..  He put up 21.2 ppg, 13.5 apg, and 4.5 rpg.

In one of Steph's best years... 2015-2015... He put up 30.1 ppg, 6.7apg, and 5.4 rpg. 

But notice this dfference:

IT 1984-1985 3pt attempts = 113.

SC 2015-2016 3pt attempts = 886.

SC shot almost 8 times more 3 pters than IT. 

In fact, 2015-2016 per game... SC - 11.2 and  in 1984-1985  per game IT - 1.4   That's exactly 8 times as many. 

This is why the comparison is problematic.  The way offense is played has changed.   That's because of Steph Freakin Curry.  Could Isiah have adapted... I don't know.  His three point game was weak.   Could Isiah's offense have translated to today?  No handchecking.. but also no fast breaks. 

The real question is what happened to fast break offenses?  Is it all about the take foul?

 

 

 

I'm not actually comparing Curry with IT.  I've stated on here a couple of times that Curry is an all-time great player.  The thing is all the guys who clearly aren't that good who are outproducing the best of the history of short PGs prior to this era.  I used IT as an example since most people on this site have him on their list of top 5 PGs of all-time (and those that don't usually have him among the top 10).  We all know his offensive game was more heavily weighted towards scoring than being an elite passer/playmaker.  But this era has a dozen guys who outproduce his career high every season and it isn't because De'Aaron Fox or Kyrie or SGA are levels above his talent.  It is because they play in an era where it is comparatively easy for short PGs to flourish on offense in a way that just wasn't the case in prior eras.  You don't have to be even All-Star worthy to outproduce IT.  Lillard produced 30 ppg in 2020.  Is he 50% better than IT at his peak?  The season before, Kemba Walker s*** canned IT's career highs.  Is that because Kemba Walker is an All-Time great scoring PG or because the door is wide open to scoring PGs in a way that it wasn't when IT was playing?  To me, it is obvious that the change in era has opened the door and not that Kemba Walker is a god.

Let me illustrate this point in a different way.

Which is the better offensive player?  Peak Isiah Thomas or peak Isaiah Thomas?  The numbers say it is your Boston Celtic Thomas >>> Detroit's IT. 

Third Best in NBA 28.9 ppg on .625% TS% versus 12th best in NBA 22.9 ppg on .525% TS%

No contest, Isaiah Thomas isn't just better but is loads better right?  If the rules changes haven't impacted the game, then that is a no-brainer.  But I'm saying the gap between Isaiah's career best and IT's career best is a reflection of the era and not their talent.  There are just dozens of guys who can make this case because they played in a wide open era.  Heck, you can make the case with a half dozen UK players alone who are clearly inferior to IT, imo, just looking at John Wall, De'Aaron Fox, SGA, Booker, Herro, Murray, Bledsoe, etc.  You can look at their best scoring seasons and make a case for any of them over IT's best based usually both on volume and efficiency.  Does that reflect they are all better than IT?  Of course not.  It reflects the rule changes that have led to lead guards being able to be more productive and more efficient scorers than prior eras.

Unless the rules change, this isn't going to stop either.  You will continue to see guys make the leap to or above IT's career bests season after season whether that is Malcom Brogdon (same volume, much better efficiency) or Terry Rozier or Isaiah Thomas even though those guys couldn't hold his jock.

[kg01]

13 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Ok, yea, they lost. We also had to comeback from 20+ point deficits in back to back games to beat them. We have no one on the team that can guard Embiid.

They don't stop games in the 3rd quarter, mate.  It's whomever has the most points at the end that counts.  I don't care if a team gets down 60.  If they have the most points at the end, that's all that matters.  The 'how' is inconsequential.

And let's not ignore the fact that JoeLLLL's fitness played a major part in why they lost those leads.  And let's also not forget that they continue to lose big leads despite his 1st half dominance.

He can score 70/game and I'd still like our chances.  He's an impactful player but, if they advance in the playoffs, it won't be because of him.  It'll be because of what their perimeter players give them.

[Spud2nique]

23 minutes ago, kg01 said:

LLLL

 

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

@AHF, you think this would have a shot in hell of slowing down Trae Young?

 

 

Trae and Karl Malone would be huge.  Two MVP level talents versus Chicago's two HOF talents.  I'd love to see that play out.

Trae and JC or Trae and Al Horford would be comparatively easy to stop.  Focus more on Trae (as teams had to focus more on Karl) and the other guy can't do enough to kill you.  You keep a hand on Trae the whole time and don't let him get the separation he can get today.  Pippen would still be effective sliding around the floor if you simply replaced Stockton and Malone with Trae and JC or Trae and Horford or some other non-elite volume scoring PF.

There is a reason that even though Stockton was a high % shooter than he was never a volume scorer.  Stockton scoring didn't scale the way that Malone did.  Stockton had repeated season with a much better TS% than Trae but never averaged 18 ppg because defenders had too many tools to impede small guards who wanted to put the team on their back.  (Trae's career high is .602% TS%; Stockton did better than that 10 seasons even as high as .656% TS% but again was never even in the conversation of best scorers in the league because he did that by limiting his attempts because it wasn't going to scale).

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

JoeLLLL

That’s cool! Glenn and Joel huh. I think I get the game lemme try.

BenLLLL  ? 
 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

That’s cool! Glenn and Joel huh. I think I get the game lemme try.

BenLLLL  ? 
 

Maybe Ben Simm0.Q4FGAns?  Doesn't have quite the same flow.

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Trae and Karl Malone would be huge.  Two MVP level talents versus Chicago's two HOF talents.  I'd love to see that play out.

Trae and JC or Trae and Al Horford would be comparatively easy to stop.  Focus more on Trae (as teams had to focus more on Karl) and the other guy can't do enough to kill you.  You keep a hand on Trae the whole time and don't let him get the separation he can get today.  Pippen would still be effective sliding around the floor if you simply replaced Stockton and Malone with Trae and JC or Trae and Horford or some other non-elite volume scoring PF.

There is a reason that even though Stockton was a high % shooter than he was never a volume scorer.  Stockton scoring didn't scale the way that Malone did.  Stockton had repeated season with a much better TS% than Trae but never averaged 18 ppg because defenders had too many tools to impede small guards who wanted to put the team on their back.

You know what’s going on here @AHF right? Supes is tickling your squawk all time dynasty bone . I know you wanna do it. You said it yourself, our rosters could pair;

Trae and the mailman!

Jordan and Giannis!  

Magic and Embiid!

Zeke and Jokic!

sCurry and Ewing! (I’m not giving him Hak)

Don Mitch and Hakeem! 
 

It would be fun to imagine for sure!

ps Looking at the pairing I put up, they suck my bad. Lol.

 

 

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, kg01 said:

They don't stop games in the 3rd quarter, mate.  It's whomever has the most points at the end that counts.  I don't care if a team gets down 60.  If they have the most points at the end, that's all that matters.  The 'how' is inconsequential.

And let's not ignore the fact that JoeLLLL's fitness played a major part in why they lost those leads.  And let's also not forget that they continue to lose big leads despite his 1st half dominance.

He can score 70/game and I'd still like our chances.  He's an impactful player but, if they advance in the playoffs, it won't be because of him.  It'll be because of what their perimeter players give them.

The thing I hate though..

Is the ref's  influence.  It's easy to see when you watch Philly, Embiid gets a lot of soft whistles.  Right now, Trae doesn't get the obvious whistle.   To me.. it seems like it's been implanted in the refs minds that we can't let Trae get to the line as much.   Sounds silly but when you create a rule and say the play of Trae Young influenced it.. this is the result. 

What I fear is that this trend will get stronger in the playoffs.

What I mean is that Embiid will stop getting the soft whistle.  BUT also, Trae will get less of the obvious whistles.   There is an inherent unfairness when it comes to the way that Trae Young has been and will be ref'd.  It's so much of the fabric of what the refs are trying to establish that I doubt that they would even police themselves... and that is a tragedy.  

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, AHF said:

There is a reason that even though Stockton was a high % shooter than he was never a volume scorer.  Stockton scoring didn't scale the way that Malone did.  Stockton had repeated season with a much better TS% than Trae but never averaged 18 ppg because defenders had too many tools to impede small guards who wanted to put the team on their back.  (Trae's career high is .602% TS%; Stockton did better than that 10 seasons even as high as .656% TS% but again was never even in the conversation of best scorers in the league because he did that by limiting his attempts because it wasn't going to scale).

The problem with the TS% comparison here is that Stockton had more options as a facilitator than Trae does.  i.e. Stockton could choose when he wanted to shoot and that allows for him to take the best shot.   Trae manages just about 80% of the Hawks offense and there is no second scorer as dominant as Karl Malone.   Thus Trae should have a higher PPG output than Stockton but a lower TS% because he don't have the luxury of choosing when he wants to shoot i.e. taking the best shot.

I will grant you that as Trae gets wiser, he will stop taking a lot of the bullshit shots and his TS% will get higher... but for now.. the comparison is really not apples to apples. 

[Diesel]

Spinning the block....

This is John Stockton choosing his shots...

He gets to examine his shot like a woman who has all day to grocery shop. 

This is an examination of Trae picking his shots:

The video depicts what we would call a volume shooter..   Trae is not exactly that but Trae is a rich shopper in a hurry.  He grabs all the fruit he needs and he can pay for it.   When he gets home he finds out that some were good and some were bad.   That's how Trae shoots.  He takes shots.. he takes all the shots he needs to take... but unlike Stockton, he doesn't have the luxury to examine each shot and take the best one.  Some of the shots he takes he takes because there's nobody on the team for him to defer to.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Trae and Karl Malone would be huge.  Two MVP level talents versus Chicago's two HOF talents.  I'd love to see that play out.

Trae and JC or Trae and Al Horford would be comparatively easy to stop.  Focus more on Trae (as teams had to focus more on Karl) and the other guy can't do enough to kill you.  You keep a hand on Trae the whole time and don't let him get the separation he can get today.  Pippen would still be effective sliding around the floor if you simply replaced Stockton and Malone with Trae and JC or Trae and Horford or some other non-elite volume scoring PF.

There is a reason that even though Stockton was a high % shooter than he was never a volume scorer.  Stockton scoring didn't scale the way that Malone did.  Stockton had repeated season with a much better TS% than Trae but never averaged 18 ppg because defenders had too many tools to impede small guards who wanted to put the team on their back.  (Trae's career high is .602% TS%; Stockton did better than that 10 seasons even as high as .656% TS% but again was never even in the conversation of best scorers in the league because he did that by limiting his attempts because it wasn't going to scale).

Trae and Al Horford would dominate the NBA in the 90s to levels we haven't seen even in the modern NBA. Al is way more versatile than Malone and if he was playing in the 90s with the 90s rules and spamming that 1/4 PnR, he would be the best scorer in NBA history. Karl Malone is still the most overrated player I've seen in NBA history. Him and Clyde Drexler. Both would be in so much trouble in the modern NBA. 

Pippen couldn't guard swifty quick skillful guards of that era, neither could Pippen or Harper so try again. Trae is a cheap code, he would be doing things no one has ever seen in the 90s.

LMAO, in what world could defenders slow down Trae in the 90s? Tell me these tools. This sounds like a fairy tale.

Trae and Horford would dominate the 90s and we might be looking at a skinny PG from Norman as the GOAT 

 

[kg01]

38 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The thing I hate though..

Is the ref's  influence.  It's easy to see when you watch Philly, Embiid gets a lot of soft whistles.  Right now, Trae doesn't get the obvious whistle.   To me.. it seems like it's been implanted in the refs minds that we can't let Trae get to the line as much.   Sounds silly but when you create a rule and say the play of Trae Young influenced it.. this is the result. 

What I fear is that this trend will get stronger in the playoffs.

What I mean is that Embiid will stop getting the soft whistle.  BUT also, Trae will get less of the obvious whistles.   There is an inherent unfairness when it comes to the way that Trae Young has been and will be ref'd.  It's so much of the fabric of what the refs are trying to establish that I doubt that they would even police themselves... and that is a tragedy.  

JoeLLLL is good.  Really good.  But he ain't Shaq and it seems like the league is trying to treat him like he is.  This idea that 'they foul me because they can't guard me' stuff is silly.  He's not getting fouled to avoid getting carried into the rim like Shaq used to do guys.  He's getting fouled on artificial rip-throughs and other ticky-tack stuff to get into the penalty.  Then is starting the parade to the line.

Sure, there are times when guys just take a foul if he's got low position.  But he spends an out-sized amount of time out on the perimeter because he's lazy and out of shape constantly.

[Plainview1981]

47 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae and Al Horford would dominate the NBA in the 90s to levels we haven't seen even in the modern NBA. Al is way more versatile than Malone and if he was playing in the 90s with the 90s rules and spamming that 1/4 PnR, he would be the best scorer in NBA history. Karl Malone is still the most overrated player I've seen in NBA history. Him and Clyde Drexler. Both would be in so much trouble in the modern NBA. 

Pippen couldn't guard swifty quick skillful guards of that era, neither could Pippen or Harper so try again. Trae is a cheap code, he would be doing things no one has ever seen in the 90s.

LMAO, in what world could defenders slow down Trae in the 90s? Tell me these tools. This sounds like a fairy tale.

Trae and Horford would dominate the 90s and we might be looking at a skinny PG from Norman as the GOAT 

 

I like a Trae and AL combo because a guard as quick and creative as Trae will draw so much attention that Al would get a lot of easy shots.

He is the kind of screener that Trae needs also.

You gunna give Trae all that attention at the basket and give Am those midrange jumpers that were like layups to him?

With Trae, So and Kyle you would get a killer 3 level of scoring.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Plainview1981

[AHF]

Al in the league for 15 years.  Has averaged more than 15 ppg twice and never come close to 20 ppg.  He got completely shut down in the playoffs by people like Tristan Thompson.  But he would dominate scoring huge numbers of points in the 1990s when matched up against David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dennis Rodman, etc.  Sounds legit to me.  

56 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae and Al Horford would dominate the NBA in the 90s to levels we haven't seen even in the modern NBA. Al is way more versatile than Malone and if he was playing in the 90s with the 90s rules and spamming that 1/4 PnR, he would be the best scorer in NBA history. Karl Malone is still the most overrated player I've seen in NBA history. Him and Clyde Drexler. Both would be in so much trouble in the modern NBA. 

Pippen couldn't guard swifty quick skillful guards of that era, neither could Pippen or Harper so try again. Trae is a cheap code, he would be doing things no one has ever seen in the 90s.

LMAO, in what world could defenders slow down Trae in the 90s? Tell me these tools. This sounds like a fairy tale.

Trae and Horford would dominate the 90s and we might be looking at a skinny PG from Norman as the GOAT 

 

OMG - I didn't even read that line the first time.  

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Al in the league for 15 years.  Has averaged more than 15 ppg twice and never come close to 20 ppg.  He got completely shut down in the playoffs by people like Tristan Thompson.  But he would dominate scoring huge numbers of points in the 1990s when matched up against David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dennis Rodman, etc.  Sounds legit to me.  

OMG - I didn't even read that line the first time.  

I don't care. You spam the 1/4 PnR with Trae Young and there is nothing you can do about it with those rules. 

You keep harping on Al struggles in the Cleveland series as if he didn't bust Tristian shit with Boston.

Edited April 4, 2022 by NBASupes

[kg01]

15 hours ago, AHF said:

Al in the league for 15 years.  Has averaged more than 15 ppg twice and never come close to 20 ppg.  He got completely shut down in the playoffs by people like Tristan Thompson.  But he would dominate scoring huge numbers of points in the 1990s when matched up against David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Dennis Rodman, etc.  Sounds legit to me.

I'd love to hear the response to this part.

And it wasn't "just" the CLE series where Al got dominated by certain guys.