All-NBA Trae!

[macdaddy]

 

 

[kg01]

39 minutes ago, marco102 said:

There is a way to use stats but claiming Luka is the best defender on Dallas is not it.

And, more importantly, it doesn't make you a "hater" to point that out.  It also doesn't mean you don't recognize Trae's shortcomings in that regard, which is another thing people like to say.

"Whaddoyoumean Luuka's a bad defender?  Aw you jussa Trae-stan!"

It's like, "No, sir.  They're both bad defenders.  Just because I point out the one wearing the Mavs jersey is bad, doesn't mean I'm saying Trae's good."

Quotes from several real conversations, I bet.

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

And, more importantly, it doesn't make you a "hater" to point that out.  It also doesn't mean you don't recognize Trae's shortcomings in that regard, which is another thing people like to say.

"Whaddoyoumean Luuka's a bad defender?  Aw you jussa Trae-stan!"

It's like, "No, sir.  They're both bad defenders.  Just because I point out the one wearing the Mavs jersey is bad, doesn't mean I'm saying Trae's good."

Quotes from several real conversations, I bet.

Trae is not an equally bad defender to Luka which is what posters are saying. That's just objectively false. I also didn't say Luka is Dallas' best defender just pointing out that Dallas' defense has played it's best when he is on the floor, which is, again, not an opinion but a measurable fact. At almost no point in Trae's career has that ever been true, including last year's playoff run (Trae was last on the team in D-rating) so this is just to highlight that whatever Luka's shortcoming's are defensively they are pretty easy to mask comparted to Trae's. One series against Golden State doesn't change that fact.

Trae has been bottom five in defensive RAPTOR every year he has been in the league, usually bottom 3 among the 200 or so players who play starter-ish minutes. You can say every defensive stat is influenced by the other player in the lineups even RAPTOR (which is supposed to isolate player impact) and that is true. But the discrepency between Luka and Trae is huge even if we compare say last year where both Dallas and Atlanta had almost an identical defensive ratings as a team. So to say Trae is better offensively is probably fact, at least this year, but to say he is equal defensively is just homerism really. There is no measurable that exists that indicates this. "But I SEE IT" does not constitute an objective argument.

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Trae is not an equally bad defender to Luka which is what posters are saying. That's just objectively false. I also didn't say Luka is Dallas' best defender just pointing out that Dallas' defense has played it's best when he is on the floor, which is, again, not an opinion but a measurable fact. At almost no point in Trae's career has that ever been true, including last year's playoff run (Trae was last on the team in D-rating) so this is just to highlight that whatever Luka's shortcoming's are defensively they are pretty easy to mask comparted to Trae's. One series against Golden State doesn't change that fact.

Trae has been bottom five in defensive RAPTOR every year he has been in the league, usually bottom 3 among the 200 or so players who play starter-ish minutes. You can say every defensive stat is influenced by the other player in the lineups even RAPTOR (which is supposed to isolate player impact) and that is true. But the discrepency between Luka and Trae is huge even if we compare say last year where both Dallas and Atlanta had almost an identical defensive ratings as a team. So to say Trae is better offensively is probably fact, at least this year, but to say he is equal defensively is just homerism really. There is no measurable that exists that indicates this. "But I SEE IT" does not constitute an objective argument.

Not sure why this block of text is directed at me.

Also, bad is bad.  There is no "less bad".  They're both bad.  Bottom line.

People gotta stop reading into these defensive metrics so much.  In reality, defense can't be quantified down to the level of individual players.

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Not sure why this block of text is directed at me.

Also, bad is bad.  There is no "less bad".  They're both bad.  Bottom line.

People gotta stop reading into these defensive metrics so much.  In reality, defense can't be quantified down to the level of individual players.

There are definite problems with defensive metrics but defensive rating in particular is just riddled with issues generated by looking at who is on the floor at a given time.

This discussion reminds me a bit of a pitcher in baseball who has his personal catcher who is a defensive whiz but for the rest of the rotation they have a better bat but much worse glove in the game.  Crediting the pitcher with improving the team's defense is a mistake of substituting correlation for causation.

Metrics that show Luka as a standout defender are making this mistake, imo.  Dallas makes a concerted effort to surround Luka with its best defenders as much as possible.  It is good for the team and you see it reflected in the defensive rating numbers.  It shows the defense is successful (at least relative to other lineups) when he is on the floor but doesn't show he is an impact defender who is driving that number.

[Atlantaholic]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

There are definite problems with defensive metrics but defensive rating in particular is just riddled with issues generated by looking at who is on the floor at a given time.

This discussion reminds me a bit of a pitcher in baseball who has his personal catcher who is a defensive whiz but for the rest of the rotation they have a better bat but much worse glove in the game.  Crediting the pitcher with improving the team's defense is a mistake of substituting correlation for causation.

Metrics that show Luka as a standout defender are making this mistake, imo.  Dallas makes a concerted effort to surround Luka with its best defenders as much as possible.  It is good for the team and you see it reflected in the defensive rating numbers.  It shows the defense is successful (at least relative to other lineups) when he is on the floor but doesn't show he is an impact defender who is driving that number.

Of course, which is why you also look at box +- and Raptor +-. You look at all the defensive stats, not just one in a vacuum. Outside of Collin Sexton no one is as bad as Trae Young consistently in every single one of the stats, and Doncic is never at the bottom. Keep in mind we are talking over the last 5 years not just this season. Doncic has played on terrible defensive teams just like Trae, and his team lineups and coach is completely different than when he got into the league, same as Trae. So they've both played in a multitude of lineups, different systems, with different players, and one is consistently every singe year a lot less bad than the other. 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Of course, which is why you also look at box +- and Raptor +-. You look at all the defensive stats, not just one in a vacuum. Outside of Collin Sexton no one is as bad as Trae Young consistently in every single one of the stats, and Doncic is never at the bottom. Keep in mind we are talking over the last 5 years not just this season. Doncic has played on terrible defensive teams just like Trae, and his team lineups and coach is completely different than when he got into the league, same as Trae. So they've both played in a multitude of lineups, different systems, with different players, and one is consistently every singe year a lot less bad than the other. 

That's looking too hard at the numbers and trying to make them mean something. 

If Dallas always has it's best defensive players on the floor with Doncic, then any BOX numbers are going to be swayed and will never give you a good measure of Doncic's defense.

If Dallas GM is great at finding defensive players and Travis sucks at it... then Ultimately Doncic takes the floor with a team that will give him great defensive numbers and Trae won't.  Especially if individually both are bad.. and both are bad..  HUNTING LUKA is a thing...

[benhillboy]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:38 PM, kg01 said:

Shoulda been 2nd team.

Ja’s dad is hosting club parties with weak ass rappers now.  I know you got VIP access so you can tell his dad straight up “your son is a cancer!”

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

People gotta stop reading into these defensive metrics so much. 

Al metrics period.

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

There are definite problems with defensive metrics but defensive rating in particular is just riddled with issues generated by looking at who is on the floor at a given time.

This discussion reminds me a bit of a pitcher in baseball who has his personal catcher who is a defensive whiz but for the rest of the rotation they have a better bat but much worse glove in the game.  Crediting the pitcher with improving the team's defense is a mistake of substituting correlation for causation.

Metrics that show Luka as a standout defender are making this mistake, imo.  Dallas makes a concerted effort to surround Luka with its best defenders as much as possible.  It is good for the team and you see it reflected in the defensive rating numbers.  It shows the defense is successful (at least relative to other lineups) when he is on the floor but doesn't show he is an impact defender who is driving that number.

He actually did drive it in the postseason with cleaning the f&@k outta the glass and a 2.5 steals + blocks average.  The Mav’s ratings thus far in the playoffs are even at 115 to 115.  Here’s the rating breakdown:

His teammates are quite overrated IMO.  Bullock, DFS, and Powell all solid defenders, nothing special though.  Brunson has taken a clear step back with more offensive workload.  It is very impressive (and uncommon) to see no one dragging the team down well below 115 though, not even Dinwiddie.

Quiet as kept Luka is dragging down the offense a bit with a super high usage (40%) with a less than 2:1 assist to turn and poor offensive rebounding for his size and minutes.  Very important factors, the opposite of the same factors that spiked Delon Wrights offensive rating high af. 

It’s always gonna favor guys who get off the ball quickly and decisively, protect it, and create extra possessions (ie Bigs and tough floor based guards).  That ain’t Luka.

Edited May 26, 2022 by benhillboy

[kg01]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

Ja’s dad is hosting club parties with weak ass rappers now.  I know you got VIP access so you can tell his dad straight up “your son is a cancer!”

Yikes.  My club days are over, sir.  But I'm sure you can still pull off that 'old-head in the corner' vibe.  Reach out to @MaceCase to get on the list.

He's been known to have sketchy connex that could get you close enough to holler, "Your kid sux!" before security gives you the same treatment as that dude that tackled Dave Chapelle.. 

[marco102]

8 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Of course, which is why you also look at box +- and Raptor +-. You look at all the defensive stats, not just one in a vacuum. Outside of Collin Sexton no one is as bad as Trae Young consistently in every single one of the stats, and Doncic is never at the bottom. Keep in mind we are talking over the last 5 years not just this season. Doncic has played on terrible defensive teams just like Trae, and his team lineups and coach is completely different than when he got into the league, same as Trae. So they've both played in a multitude of lineups, different systems, with different players, and one is consistently every singe year a lot less bad than the other. 

It's called rebounds my friend.  

[JayBirdHawk]

Trae has gone beyond living rent free, he done bought the Condo

 

 

....Trae really ripped their souls out.

[RandomFan]

Trae not a fan of the refs? Who knew? Just kidding, we all know dat!

 

[RandomFan]

Ummm, lol

Junk like this is why Trae doesn't get his flowers like he should. This man just straight up lied on national TV to denigrate Trae and prop up Luka. And the stat graphic includes the two games Trae played severely injured...

Edited May 28, 2022 by RandomFan

[Spud2nique]

12 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

Ummm, lol

Junk like this is why Trae doesn't get his flowers like he should. This man just straight up lied on national TV to denigrate Trae and prop up Luka. And the stat graphic includes the two games Trae played severely injured...

Not clicking on it for bait but is it the Nick moron on the far left? That guy is just an idiot wrapped in a moron.

[marco102]

4 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Not clicking on it for bait but is it the Nick moron on the far left? That guy is just an idiot wrapped in a moron.

No it is the butt wipe next to the lady.

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

No it is the butt wipe next to the lady.

Gotcha! Butt wipe to the left!  

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Gotcha! Butt wipe to the left!  

And we know who the guy in the middle there is! 
 

[kg01]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:40 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

Trae has gone beyond living rent free, he done bought the Condo

....Trae really ripped their souls out.

It's gone past the point of being embarrassing for them.  If I'm there with my kid(s), I'm pissed.  Only time they need to hear that type of language is late in the 4th after the Hawks get screwed out of another and-1 opportunity.

Wait, are we not all on the same page on that?

30 minutes ago, marco102 said:

No it is the butt wipe next to the lady.

Dang, it's 2022 so I don't know if I'm allowed to jokingly ask which one's the lady.

Ah well, circa 2015 or so that one woulda got a lotta likes and laughs.