Haynes: Rival executives are of belief Hawks guard Trae Young could be next star player to request trade if team doesn’t make inroads come playoff time.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I definitely think Trae is very hard to build around. Can't run an offense, can't play in a system, can't play off the ball, WOAT defender. Yeah, he's hard to build around. That's a fact. 

I don't believe TS thought he was Steph at least after a year. They been getting players who they strongly think would fit well next to Trae. Hunter, OO, Griffin (him and Landry), and took some risk that didn't work Bruno and Cam but it didn't work. 

 

KAT is the most critical get to me. Gives us a #1 option with Trae being the #1 ball handler and playmaker. It just works for all parties, especially offensively. 

Ayton just isn't mentally there. If he was locked in, I would be all in, then again, he wouldn't be possible. I don't know if Trae wants someone that's not all in that he has to depend on. I do understand why you would want it, Ayton for Capela and Bogi but I don't know if it fixes things or makes things worse. The hope is that Ayton plays to his potential and becomes that #2 option star we hoped from with Murray but man, that's a massive ask when he has the same passion for the game that Marvin Williams had. Capela, for his severe limitations is locked in. 

PHX don't want JC but there are teams that want JC for spare parts. It's gonna cost us Bogi who is quite critical for us now that Kevin is gone. 

They don't want JC but Capela been on their radar as has Bogi. So we can clearly do a trade with them for Ayton/Crowder. 

It’s possible Ayton is just in the wrong place. I don’t want to judge his passion off of what’s going on in Phx. I get why that may be a concern for many but the idea of getting KAT here is just extremely unrealistic to me. As you stated Ayton can also be effective along side Trae once locked in and I believe getting Ayton locked in is more of a showing appreciation type thing.

I don’t agree that’s it’s hard to build around Trae. The issues Trae have offensively is just growing pains …he can certainly run an offense if given the opportunity and he’s shown several times he can be a playmaker all game but when he doesn’t have teammates who can knock down shots consistently or dribble the damn ball it’s going to look like he’s out of sync when it’s really his team.

[JTB]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

How can anyone make the argument Trae is easy to build around? He's a ball dominant, small guard. Those type players are notoriously difficult to build around. It's a basic NBA truth. The incredulity of Trae-stans is astonishing. 

He’s not hard to build around when the options are out there. He also has yet to play for a coach who can maximize his elite offensive abilities.

fans say shit like he’s hard to build around then when he’s on another team showing out …those same fans wonder why we couldn’t do it here.

 

[JTB]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I wanna give you a like for the use of incredulity, but I won't because it's not hard to build around Trae.  It's just not 'in the box', so it befuddled folks that think they know everything about basketball.

I think these type of fans don’t see flaws in the players around Trae. Hunter can’t dribble straight though improved. Collins has no go to moves. The coach has no idea how to run a top tier offense nor does his staff ….yet it’s hard to build around Trae when he literally has to do everything offensively and Murray has helped but honestly Murray is in the same boat as Trae when he’s on the bench.

AJ has been a nice surprise however.

[deester11]

3 minutes ago, JTB said:

I think these type of fans don’t see flaws in the players around Trae. Hunter can’t dribble straight though improved. Collins has no go to moves. The coach has no idea how to run a top tier offense nor does his staff ….yet it’s hard to build around Trae when he literally has to do everything offensively and Murray has helped but honestly Murray is in the same boat as Trae when he’s on the bench.

AJ has been a nice surprise however.

You can't say this enough.  

[Spud2nique]

31 minutes ago, JTB said:

It’s possible Ayton is just in the wrong place.

No no I don’t think so. Again tools wise, he’s probably #2 in the league behind Giannis, physically, skill is there too, but his mental isn’t. I dunno, I’m worried that guy is a headcase.

[OldTimeHawk]

49 minutes ago, kg01 said:

How many nba players actually play defense with "heart and desire"?

Suggesting we can get a draft pick to "replace him" ignores literal decades of proof that's not possible.

And how do we know he's the one in the mix that needs to "grow up"?  Spoiler alert, we don't know.

we have traded away multiple assets to surround Trae with players yet here we are and Trae is still jacking up stupid shots at the worst possible moments , standing around if the balls not in his hands, and constantly being the weak link on the defensive side of the ball. The offense isnt working because its either all about Trae getting his. Basketball is about finding out who is hot on a given night and getting them the ball and exploiting mismatches. We pretty much are watching while Murray goes into a shell . So I guess to keep Trae happy we bust up this team again and fire the coach? Maybe Trae wants to be player coach too ??  I would love to see what Murray an do and how he would utilize his teamates.

[Spud2nique]

51 minutes ago, kg01 said:

decades of proof

You didn’t like Roshown McLeod?  He was supposed to be pretty awesome. I mean I didn’t think he was the next Pippen or anything but…

Donta Smith… ooohhhh baby he had “that look”.. memeber @kg01? Along with the other rooks at the presser. I wanted Iggy with pick #6 but we went with the Child from Stanford. One, Josh Child’s dress . 
 

Then we had the lock . I predicted James Worthy even though I begged for CP3 and said he was the next Zeke. Marvin welllllll, he wasn’t “worthy” (pun fully intended).

 

Were you saying something about draft picks or something? You are wrong, most are (in green font).

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeHawk said:

Maybe Trae wants to be player coach too ?? 

Hey that’s not a bad idea… give him that Celtic Bill Russell green light . Nate is plum out of ideas. He’s got a monotone voice to go with a monotone game plan.. monotone adjustments. 

[kg01]

4 minutes ago, OldTimeHawk said:

we have traded away multiple assets to surround Trae with players yet here we are and Trae is still jacking up stupid shots at the worst possible moments , standing around if the balls not in his hands, and constantly being the weak link on the defensive side of the ball. The offense isnt working because its either all about Trae getting his. Basketball is about finding out who is hot on a given night and getting them the ball and exploiting mismatches. We pretty much are watching while Murray goes into a shell . So I guess to keep Trae happy we bust up this team again and fire the coach? Maybe Trae wants to be player coach too ??  I would love to see what Murray an do and how he would utilize his teamates.

What assets have been traded away to appease Trae?  I'll wait.

G'head and say Heurter and I'll let others inform you why he's gone.  Who else?

I'd love to see what Murray can do too.  Perhaps you miss the minutes each game where it's his show while Trae sits?

Next thing you know you'll be telling us we need to take the ball from Trae and give it to Hunter ... so he can dribble it off his knees a couple more times.

Sheesh...

[OldTimeHawk]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

Hey that’s not a bad idea… give him that Celtic Bill Russell green light . Nate is plum out of ideas. He’s got a monotone voice to go with a monotone game plan.. monotone adjustments. 

at this point we are who we are . We dont trade Trae this season but we cant keep playing at this level. NM will be gone very soon if he cant get ahold of this situation. Then we reevaluate whether Trae can work here in the offseason and a blow up is in order. But in my opinion this team is underachieving . Coaches dont have the power they did in the past and NM is gonna lose unless he can figure out how to salvage this quick. 

[NekiEcko]

@OldTimeHawk I think you are way off-base with that and its too much to say about that so I move it on

First of all, I think Trae is a Hawk for life no doubt about it but the one thing I think people is forgetting that he just got that new contract, he is a new father, and alot more responsibilities as face of the Hawks.  Sometimes, he might be trying too hard and not paying attention to many things.  Sometimes, i wish he does not do three-point bombs all of the time but it is part of his game that he can use that as a weapon to get into the paint.

Yeah, we do need a soft reset after this season, but I think that Trae will be fine and want to represent us for rest of his career. 

[OldTimeHawk]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

What assets have been traded away to appease Trae?  I'll wait.

G'head and say Heurter and I'll let others inform you why he's gone.  Who else?

I'd love to see what Murray can do too.  Perhaps you miss the minutes each game where it's his show while Trae sits?

Next thing you know you'll be telling us we need to take the ball from Trae and give it to Hunter ... so he can dribble it off his knees a couple more times.

Sheesh...

any team sports is about establishing roles. This is Traes team and he calls the shots . Murray got to step lightly .  The team dynamic has to change but the power rests with Trae. A mature player uses that power wisely and exhibits leadership through actions. Lets pretend that Trae has done this and its all NM fault while also scapegoating JC.  

[OldTimeHawk]

5 minutes ago, NekiEcko said:

@OldTimeHawk I think you are way off-base with that and its too much to say about that so I move it on

First of all, I think Trae is a Hawk for life no doubt about it but the one thing I think people is forgetting that he just got that new contract, he is a new father, and alot more responsibilities as face of the Hawks.  Sometimes, he might be trying too hard and not paying attention to many things.  Sometimes, i wish he does not do three-point bombs all of the time but it is part of his game that he can use that as a weapon to get into the paint.

Yeah, we do need a soft reset after this season, but I think that Trae will be fine and want to represent us for rest of his career. 

Im not anti Trae . I love the guy but he has to do the little things and make his teammates look good and put the team in good situations.  Taking personal responsibility for his shortcomings and working his ass off to stop being  the weak link on defense.  Im not saying he has to lead the league but putting in effort and doing the same dirty work as everyone else goes a long way to inspire your team mates. A locker room is always going to be somewhat dysfunctional but here we are again after adding talent and its the same shit. But ultimately NM will be the guy gone - seems hes lost Trae - we aint moving forward until one of them is gone .  

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, kg01 said:

I like the energy but I don't think he was meaning to discredit us.

Every team gets a bump when a coaching changes happens.  The period it lasts is what's in question.

Nawl... Orlando fired Clifford and hired Mordo and nothing changed.  I think they may have lost more games.   We fired Bud and hired LP...and got worse.   No Bumps. 

 

 

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

He’s not hard to build around when the options are out there. He also has yet to play for a coach who can maximize his elite offensive abilities.

fans say shit like he’s hard to build around then when he’s on another team showing out …those same fans wonder why we couldn’t do it here.

 

I'm just saying the model of a small, ball dominant guard as your best player has not yielded many championships. Ideally, Trae should be a number two to a dominant wing or big. 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Not to be Debbie Downer, but Trae's current .549 TS% is below league average and we are only 9 games away from the half way point in the season.

For the month of Dec.  He's up to .559

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, bleachkit said:

How can anyone make the argument Trae is easy to build around? He's a ball dominant, small guard. Those type players are notoriously difficult to build around. It's a basic NBA truth. The incredulity of Trae-stans is astonishing. 

What makes Trae different is that he can score 27.0 ppg and get you about 10 apg.  Yall keep pulling out these stereotypes... but no PG in history with the exception of Maybe Harden has been as diverse at Trae.     We talking AI points with Steve Nash's assists.   There's no other player... so when you guys start that stereotype.. it is the thing that doesn't fit. 

Our problem on offense is offensive identity and diversity.   We can be a primarily PNR/PNP team but our offense needs to have more movement on that to make it good enough to call it our bread and butter.  That is not Trae's fault.   We have played Trae with all shooters and that works but we know we need consistent shooters with at least one guy who can drive and handle the ball.  Kev was that until he stop being that. 

 

 

[Wretch]

3 hours ago, bleachkit said:

How can anyone make the argument Trae is easy to build around? He's a ball dominant, small guard. Those type players are notoriously difficult to build around. It's a basic NBA truth. The incredulity of Trae-stans is astonishing. 

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Trae stans love him and I understand why, his offensive abilities are insane, especially when his shot is falling and it's hard for them to see him as the problem when he has so much value but they underrate what he doesn't do well and blame others for it. 

So, I don't want to get into a merry-go-round, and to avoid it I will backtrack and say you guys are not "haters" and I won't call the opinion that Trae is difficult to build around "silly."  I'll throw those things out and bring intelligent discussion to the table if you'll do the same.

So, if we're talking about defense, sure.  Get him in a switch and he's cooked.  People lament his defensive IQ or his commitment to it.  I have seen bad defense from Trae and I've seen him engaged.  However, by that same measuring stick...I don't see is the same amount of grief given to Ja or Luka - and there's a lot of questionable footage and available on both.  Particularly Phoenix dialing up Luka on switches and abusing him like clockwork last year.  We talk about the smallish body of Trae, but specifically...how is it limiting him?  He's not missing games and he's also not struggling to score because of it.  Meanwhile, Morant has missed twice as many games to injury (45) despite Trae being in the league a full season longer.  Moreover, Ja's team is .622 without him...where the Hawks are not even a .500 ballclub without Trae over the lifetimes of their careers.

This is narrative talk to me...but we're going to move forward.  Let's talk about trying to build around small point guards defensively.  The Pistons and Jazz were mightily successful with slight of build PGs (small backcourts in all actuality) in a much more physical era.  I watched Mookie lead the Hawks at 6'0" 180lbs to 50 win seasons.  I don't see size as much of a defensive detriment to the team, especially not in the backcourt, as much as I see desire and effort and the TEAM'S defensive identity.

Speaking in terms of offense...

TS% has little to no qualitative value.  By itself, it is a limited indicator that can give you performance reference on paper.  It gives you almost zero causality for the performance.  In layman's terms, there is a massive difference between a guy that takes bad shots and a guy that can't shoot.  Trae is the former, Westbrook is both. 

Take away Trae's stepback, contested 3s and show me where he struggles to shoot from distance, midrange, or finish at the basket. Looking exclusively at his shooting percentages while ignoring his overall performance and what you can visibly see during the games is a very slanted and slighted argument.  Particularly when every other indicator shows how efficient of a scorer he is.  Moreover, it doesn't take him very long to get those shots up.  The problem occurs when he's dancing on the perimeter, getting into head games with his defender and launching ill advised shots early in the clock.  That's not a "fit" issue, it's team chemistry, coaching, and maturity. 

I'll give you the "maturity" argument all day long, but suggesting that Trae is a headache because he's ridiculously efficient at scoring is not logical to me.  If he were a black hole, I'd concede as well.  But Trae finds guys and he's doing it at historical levels.  What part of running the offense is he not doing?  He has mastered the PnR.  I've seen him pick and pop.  I've seen him drive and kick, but most often the ball goes up and he either finishes or gets to the line (he's 5th in the league at attempts, essentially tied with DeRozan).

How...is it difficult to build a winner around a guy that can draw a whole box and 1 at the pro level, that has zero problems shooting from 3, that is at the top of the league in both points and assists, while getting to the FT line more than any other front court player not named Embiid or Antetokounmpo.  Mind you, a player that has already been to the ECF's.  I just don't agree.  At all.

If either of you have an argument that points to something OTHER than shot selection and occasionally pounding the ball, I would love to hear it.  We keep pointing to his lack of off the ball movement, but is anybody else doing this on our team?  Do we have any kind of system in place other than attack, midrange, take turn offense?  Things could be rectified by the right coach and the right system.  IF we had such a thing and IF he continued to stubbornly rail against it, I would side with you.  Otherwise, agree to disagree.

(Supes please don't record me a podcast...lol)

[kg01]

2 hours ago, OldTimeHawk said:

any team sports is about establishing roles. This is Traes team and he calls the shots . Murray got to step lightly .  The team dynamic has to change but the power rests with Trae. A mature player uses that power wisely and exhibits leadership through actions. Lets pretend that Trae has done this and its all NM fault while also scapegoating JC.  

Who's doing that?

Nothing wrong with having a legit conversation because, with the way the team has performed, there's definitely a conversation to be had.  But the Trae slander, with absolutely no blame assigned to literally anyone else, is not a conversation.

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

For the month of Dec.  He's up to .559

 

He looks like he's finally getting his stroke back.