Team USA 2023 FIBA World Cup (Trae Watch)

[AHF]

@benhillboy and @TheNorthCydeRises - Take any monetary bets off site.  If you want a bet to discuss and follow on here, make a separate non-monetary one we can add to the thread.  Thanks!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, benhillboy said:

You know darn well WS/48 does an admirable job of being an individual metric.  Last year’s Pacers roster was flaming garbage.  Where are Shai’s (.225 last season) and Brunson’s (.175) All-NBA Bigs?  Hell where are their fringe AS guards or wings? (granted Jalen Williams is on his way).  Trae’s Win Share similarity score after two seasons was John Stockton and this was when he was spamming three point touch fouls and had major space to work with dudes like Len and Ded.

But yeah, we can go to the end of the season but still keep it at $100.  Baseball bets help pay my bills, NBA bets make my bills late lol.

 

OK . . 100 "basketball cards" it is.

[benhillboy]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

@benhillboy and @TheNorthCydeRises - Take any monetary bets off site.  If you want a bet to discuss and follow on here, make a separate non-monetary one we can add to the thread.  Thanks!

My bad I mentioned it again after your post like a jackass lol.   Off-site it is, lips zipped.  I haven’t gotten a warning in over 15.5 years and ain’t starting now!  

Edited July 6, 2023 by benhillboy

[AHF]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

My bad I mentioned it again after your post like a jackass lol.   Off-site it is, lips zipped.  I haven’t gotten a warning in over 15.5 years and ain’t starting now!  

Just do what you want offsite and add something insubstantial as a side bet here if you guys want to track it and crow about it here.  Avatar and Signature control; a post about what a great guy the other one is; picture of you in a dress; etc.

[StonedDogs]

@TheNorthCydeRises it's no knock on Trae but he can't shoot. And overseas guards make buckets. Rubio is a better guard than Trae across the pond. One because he's bigger, two, he shoots better, and three, he plays with the guys long enough to know every passing lane and where his cutter are going. You cannot insert Trae into a thrown together lineup against international talent. They play physical, he can't jump his way to the line, and they play zone very well. You're not gonna be a 28 AND 10 overseas bro

 

I lived in Madrid for 6 years and went to several games through those years. Even the street ballers are nice and play a completely different style than NY playground hoopers. 

[StonedDogs]

@AHF like I told @TheNorthCydeRises

Trae game does not translate well to international play and there is a reason he is not invited. Those coaches have been around basketball much longer than any of us fans. They have seen everything in person and up close than you think you have seen on television. 

International game plays heavy, hard-core, physical zone. They play multiple 7 footers at once who can shoot the three. They play 6"6 guards who constantly move without the ball and can shoot the three on some catch and shoot. You have to know how to play defense to even keep up.

If teams made Kobe, Wade, and LeBron work and have 100pts dropped on their heads, what do you think they will do to a 6ft 160lb guard who is known as WOAT defender? 

You cannot go overseas with that FIBA ball, with FIBA rules, and FIBA physicality thinking you can jump into defenders and get to the line. You cannot go overseas and expect the floor to be spaced out like the nba and think you can just penetrate anytime and throw up a lob with two 7footers in the paint. 

You guys are such basketball casuals and Homer's. 

 

[StonedDogs]

@TheNorthCydeRises and dude Patty grew up against pro international players. He was a veteran in his teens lol.

 

The NBA was much easier for him. I believe Luka said the same thing 

[AHF]

9 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

@AHF like I told @TheNorthCydeRises

Trae game does not translate well to international play and there is a reason he is not invited. Those coaches have been around basketball much longer than any of us fans. They have seen everything in person and up close than you think you have seen on television. 

International game plays heavy, hard-core, physical zone. They play multiple 7 footers at once who can shoot the three. They play 6"6 guards who constantly move without the ball and can shoot the three on some catch and shoot. You have to know how to play defense to even keep up.

If teams made Kobe, Wade, and LeBron work and have 100pts dropped on their heads, what do you think they will do to a 6ft 160lb guard who is known as WOAT defender? 

You cannot go overseas with that FIBA ball, with FIBA rules, and FIBA physicality thinking you can jump into defenders and get to the line. You cannot go overseas and expect the floor to be spaced out like the nba and think you can just penetrate anytime and throw up a lob with two 7footers in the paint. 

You guys are such basketball casuals and Homer's. 

 

So you are saying that guards who aren't strong defenders and who are Trae's size don't succeed in international ball or are you saying that players like Trae can succeed once they get needed international experience?  I actually agree with you that Trae is not a mandatory pick for international teams but very few of the guys on the team are.  They all have their warts, limitations, and inexperience.

Guys like Shane Heal, Hector Campana, and Patrick Mills who had long and very successful international careers are hardly 6'6'' monsters.  If Trae was Canadian, Australian or French or something he would absolutely be on their teams and would be successful in international ball, imo.  The shorter 3pt line would be great for him and Trae's passing is actually more valuable in FIBA than in the NBA.

Call people casuals all you want but that is just an ad hominem that adds nothing to the conversation.  (Actually, I'll correct that and ask you not to call people names.  If it wasn't directed at me I would be editing your post.)

[StonedDogs]

@AHF I don't know why this site won't let me quote other user's posts

But to your point, those guards you named were born and baked into international play. These guys were playing pro ball in their teens. 

Trae's biggest accomplishment trophy wise was what, high school basketball in Oklahoma? 

We all can say the three point line is shorter and easier but you have to one, get your shot off quick in zone D and two, get used to the ball. All nba players Im sure will say that ball is different. 

As far as passing, Trae is not a Kidd. He's a shoot first pg we all know it and in my opinion it just wouldn't work on this team that is built on your starters must play elite defense. Again, the floor isn't spaced out like nba and you can't just run pick n roll with Trae against international defenses. Those teams are too smart and well coached. 

 

On top of the refs actually call travels across the pond. Trae would be frustrated alone off the refs let alone the way he is coached

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, StonedDogs said:

don't know why this site won't let me quote other user's posts

Check this link for a fix

 

 

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, StonedDogs said:

@AHF I don't know why this site won't let me quote other user's posts

But to your point, those guards you named were born and baked into international play. These guys were playing pro ball in their teens. 

Trae's biggest accomplishment trophy wise was what, high school basketball in Oklahoma? 

We all can say the three point line is shorter and easier but you have to one, get your shot off quick in zone D and two, get used to the ball. All nba players Im sure will say that ball is different. 

As far as passing, Trae is not a Kidd. He's a shoot first pg we all know it and in my opinion it just wouldn't work on this team that is built on your starters must play elite defense. Again, the floor isn't spaced out like nba and you can't just run pick n roll with Trae against international defenses. Those teams are too smart and well coached. 

 

On top of the refs actually call travels across the pond. Trae would be frustrated alone off the refs let alone the way he is coached

You mix in legit issues with seemingly meaningless pot shots like asking what trophies Trae has won.  Know how many trophies John Stockton won?  Didn't make him unfit for international play.  That is just a silly shot like your ad hominem attack.  

Issues like adjusting to the ball, to the different interpretations of traveling, to the court size, etc. apply to every American player who didn't grow up in Europe (i.e., all of them) so those aren't a strike against Trae anymore than any one else. 

On needing "elite defense" for international play, first clearly that doesn't apply to the full roster.  We've had plenty of weak defenders at various positions over the years for the US like Camelo Anthony, aging Kemba Walker, Donovan Mitchell, Paolo Banchero, Austin Reaves, AI, Starbury, Russell Westbrook, Dame, etc.  

As far as Trae being "shoot first" and unable to play with others, he has had two opportunities playing with other stars.  Those were the 2020 and 2022 All-Star games.  Both times he led his team in assists (and it wasn't close).  Playing with ultra talented teammates he put up 20 assists in 34 minutes.  By comparison, Luka Doncic played over 41 minutes and put up 7 assists in those same games (Steph Curry put up 2 assists in 36 minutes).  No idea why you think him whipping out his visa would mean losing his extraordinary passing ability.  It was his best talent from day 1 in the league and remains his best talent.

I think there is room for debate as to who gets selected but your general dislike of Trae seems to be coloring some of this.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[StonedDogs]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:26 PM, AHF said:

You mix in legit issues with seemingly meaningless pot shots like asking what trophies Trae has won.  Know how many trophies John Stockton won?  Didn't make him unfit for international play.  That is just a silly shot like your ad hominem attack.  

Issues like adjusting to the ball, to the different interpretations of traveling, to the court size, etc. apply to every American player who didn't grow up in Europe (i.e., all of them) so those aren't a strike against Trae anymore than any one else. 

On needing "elite defense" for international play, first clearly that doesn't apply to the full roster.  We've had plenty of weak defenders at various positions over the years for the US like Camelo Anthony, aging Kemba Walker, Donovan Mitchell, Paolo Banchero, Austin Reaves, AI, Starbury, Russell Westbrook, Dame, etc.  

As far as Trae being "shoot first" and unable to play with others, he has had two opportunities playing with other stars.  Those were the 2020 and 2022 All-Star games.  Both times he led his team in assists (and it wasn't close).  Playing with ultra talented teammates he put up 20 assists in 34 minutes.  By comparison, Luka Doncic played over 41 minutes and put up 7 assists in those same games (Steph Curry put up 2 assists in 36 minutes).  No idea why you think him whipping out his visa would mean losing his extraordinary passing ability.  It was his best talent from day 1 in the league and remains his best talent.

I think there is room for debate as to who gets selected but your general dislike of Trae seems to be coloring some of this.

All of your points are great. I rather Trae just focus on us. Come in season fresh legs. We're gonna need to start off strong this coming season. 

[RedDawg#8]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:26 PM, AHF said:

You mix in legit issues with seemingly meaningless pot shots like asking what trophies Trae has won.  Know how many trophies John Stockton won?  Didn't make him unfit for international play.  That is just a silly shot like your ad hominem attack.  

Issues like adjusting to the ball, to the different interpretations of traveling, to the court size, etc. apply to every American player who didn't grow up in Europe (i.e., all of them) so those aren't a strike against Trae anymore than any one else. 

On needing "elite defense" for international play, first clearly that doesn't apply to the full roster.  We've had plenty of weak defenders at various positions over the years for the US like Camelo Anthony, aging Kemba Walker, Donovan Mitchell, Paolo Banchero, Austin Reaves, AI, Starbury, Russell Westbrook, Dame, etc.  

As far as Trae being "shoot first" and unable to play with others, he has had two opportunities playing with other stars.  Those were the 2020 and 2022 All-Star games.  Both times he led his team in assists (and it wasn't close).  Playing with ultra talented teammates he put up 20 assists in 34 minutes.  By comparison, Luka Doncic played over 41 minutes and put up 7 assists in those same games (Steph Curry put up 2 assists in 36 minutes).  No idea why you think him whipping out his visa would mean losing his extraordinary passing ability.  It was his best talent from day 1 in the league and remains his best talent.

I think there is room for debate as to who gets selected but your general dislike of Trae seems to be coloring some of this.

Thank you, I had no energy to say everything you said. 

 

[AHF]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:03 PM, StonedDogs said:

All of your points are great. I rather Trae just focus on us. Come in season fresh legs. We're gonna need to start off strong this coming season. 

Trae being able to focus on the Hawks and not running the risk of getting hurt is definitely the upside of him not participating.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

Cade freaking Cunningham?  Really?  

He shot 27.9% from 3 last year and had a significantly worse A/TO ratio and A%/TO% ratio.  Career .502% TS% compared to Trae's .580% TS% (Cade was .492% last year versus .573% for Trae).  Trae's efg% was also over 30 points higher (.485% to .453%).

So take all the "you need to be a good passer, low turnover guy, and good jump shooter" stuff and shove it with CC.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Cade freaking Cunningham?  Really?  

He shot 27.9% from 3 last year and had a significantly worse A/TO ratio and A%/TO% ratio.  Career .502% TS% compared to Trae's .580% TS% (Cade was .492% last year versus .573% for Trae).  Trae's efg% was also over 30 points higher (.485% to .453%).

So take all the "you need to be a good passer, low turnover guy, and good jump shooter" stuff and shove it with CC.

But he's won so much, how can you leave him off?  Because .... that's a thing, right?  The having to be a winning player and such.  

[macdaddy]

Friggin Grant Hill.  I swear this 'ownership' group pisses me off more and more each day

Quote

Published 4:33 PM EDT, July 6, 2023

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LAS VEGAS (AP) — Grant Hill started working on the USA Basketball roster for this summer’s World Cup many months ago, long before the first invitations were extended.

The result, he hopes, will make it worth all that effort.

 

[shakes]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Friggin Grant Hill.  I swear this 'ownership' group pisses me off more and more each day

 

Grant Hill is the worst owner in sports since Jerry Reinsdorf and the White Sox.    Forgot the year of the lock out, but whatever year it was the Sox were way ahead in first place and clearly had the best team in the league.  Meanwhile guess which owner was leading the charge to lock the players out and end the season?  That's right, Jerry Reinsdorf, the guy who owned the prohibitive favorite to win the World Series.