Hawks starting PF? It can’t be JJ

[Peoriabird]

41 minutes ago, AHF said:

Guys get asked to do different things on different teams and in different offenses. 

So coaches would force players to do things they aren't good at.  Got it!

[Gray Mule]

32 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So coaches would force players to do things they aren't good at.  Got it!

Plan your work / Work your plan.

Coaches should plan to put their players in the best possible spot to be a success.  Players should work this plan.

[Peoriabird]

13 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Plan your work / Work your plan.

Coaches should plan to put their players in the best possible spot to be a success.  Players should work this plan.

And its still left to them to take the best shot possible or make the right play

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 7/21/2023 at 1:00 PM, akay said:

Saddiq most definitely is being told where to run and take shots by the coach so that Trae can set him up for easier shots than he was getting in Detroit.

 

Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  Ding!

[marco102]

This really is wild. If someone hadn't mentioned Trae gets players better shots, we wouldn't have this weird debate that coaches have no impact on where players are getting their looks from. 

Literally against Boston Quin told Jalen and John they had to shoot the three point shot to open up spacing. Jalen was a great example of letting it fly.  He hit some big ones and missed a lot, but it's about the process of not hesitating when you have an open look. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by marco102

[thecampster]

On 7/20/2023 at 4:52 PM, Spud2nique said:

14.9 minutes… 5.6 points 4.0 rebounds 1.6 dimes .5 block .5 steal per..

Yall want him to start?

I need more this is like Chris Crawford in 99.

Given more minutes may not better stats.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/crawfch01.html

I'm going to make a terrible argument but hear me out.

Those are the last 4 games of the year for Jalen. 21 minutes per game.  13.25 ppg (@59%), 5 rpg, 2.75 apg, 1.75spg, 1.5 bpg and +20 .  That's 21 minutes....roll that out to 32 minutes and its 20/7 with 4 assists, nearly 3 steals and 2 blocks.

 

If JJ gave you 20/7 next year as a 32 mpg starter with those extras, most people would accept that. I'm not saying that's what happens but it was a peak behind his potential impact. 

In 30 mpg last year, Collins gave you 13, 6.5 and 1.2.  That couldn't continue happening at 25 million.  

[theheroatl]

40 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I'm going to make a terrible argument but hear me out.

Those are the last 4 games of the year for Jalen. 21 minutes per game.  13.25 ppg (@59%), 5 rpg, 2.75 apg, 1.75spg, 1.5 bpg and +20 .  That's 21 minutes....roll that out to 32 minutes and its 20/7 with 4 assists, nearly 3 steals and 2 blocks.

 

If JJ gave you 20/7 next year as a 32 mpg starter with those extras, most people would accept that. I'm not saying that's what happens but it was a peak behind his potential impact. 

In 30 mpg last year, Collins gave you 13, 6.5 and 1.2.  That couldn't continue happening at 25 million.  

I would be cool with pushing JJ to start at the 3 spot as long as long as we have have a vet at the 4. 

Bey starting next to him might be the answer but I'm not enamored with Bey playing the 4 instead of 3.

Edited July 24, 2023 by theheroatl

[AHF]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:29 PM, Peoriabird said:

So coaches would force players to do things they aren't good at.  Got it!

I didn't say this.  Please don't straw man my posts. 

[Peoriabird]

36 minutes ago, AHF said:

I didn't say this.  Please don't straw man my posts. 

Sorry, but the fact still remains that the coaches may create the structure of the offense and maybe influence the play run during the half court sets but players then have to execute with their skill and knowledge of the game.  This includes finding open spaces and then making the right play whether it is a catch and shoot, dribble penetration or pass.  Coaches have very little to do with what a player does once he receives the ball during live action.

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Sorry, but the fact still remains that the coaches may create the structure of the offense and maybe influence the play run during the half court sets but players then have to execute with their skill and knowledge of the game.  This includes finding open spaces and then making the right play whether it is a catch and shoot, dribble penetration or pass.  Coaches have very little to do with what a player does once he receives the ball during live action.

Strong disagree.  There is ample evidence that player's roles, shot opportunities, etc. are highly dependent on coaching.  

Just look at John Collins if you don't believe me.  If you think the only reason he took more jumpers and rolled less to the basket the last couple years was because it was his personal choice and not a specific factor of the coaching scheme then I've got nothing more to say than that I'll agree to disagree.  

[Peoriabird]

31 minutes ago, AHF said:

Strong disagree.  There is ample evidence that player's roles, shot opportunities, etc. are highly dependent on coaching.  

Just look at John Collins if you don't believe me.  If you think the only reason he took more jumpers and rolled less to the basket the last couple years was because it was his personal choice and not a specific factor of the coaching scheme then I've got nothing more to say than that I'll agree to disagree.  

They never ran plays for the guy...ever! He and Dre just stood in corners while the plays developed. If they left John open, he had to take the shot but if they closed, he didn't take the shot. If he takes the shot anyway meaning a lower percentage shot,  that's on him not the coaching staff.

[AHF]

53 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

They never ran plays for the guy...ever! He and Dre just stood in corners while the plays developed. If they left John open, he had to take the shot but if they closed, he didn't take the shot. If he takes the shot anyway meaning a lower percentage shot,  that's on him not the coaching staff.

Why do you think John stopped going inside?  If you agree it was a coaching directive, don't you think that greatly influenced the types of shots he took?

From my perspective, it is a really basic and obvious thing that most players don't have carte blanche to be where ever they want to be on offense and to take whatever shots they want.  Usually, a coach has designed spacing and sets and has told players what they are supposed to look for and these coaching instructions are highly responsible for the quality and types of attempts a player takes.  This is especially true for guys who aren't a team's top option (as I'll grant that some top options do seem to have much more discretion as to the types of shots they shoot).

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Why do you think John stopped going inside?  If you agree it was a coaching directive, don't you think that greatly influenced the types of shots he took?

No room in there but I've already conceded that the structure of the offense and the plays run are to some degree dictated by the coaching staff but whether someone takes a good or bad shot or makes the right play is on the player.

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

No room in there but I've already conceded that the structure of the offense and the plays run are to some degree dictated by the coaching staff but whether someone takes a good or bad shot or makes the right play is on the player.

Using Bey as an example, whether and how often he is in the corner is highly dependent on role and coaching.  Way more so than just whether he happens to choose to shoot a corner 3 on a given possession.  He spent way more time in the corner in Atlanta than Detroit by coach's design and that was responsible for him taking a drastically increased % of his 3pt attempts from the corner.  That change in number of corner 3's should be expected to result in a massive increase in 3pt%.

If you apply Bey's exact same 3pt% numbers as applied to the shot distribution he had in Atlanta and you assume that the non-corner 3's were of the same difficulty (which I do not accept as a premise without some actual data as I expect he got more open shots playing in Atlanta), you get an expected Atlanta 3pt% of 37.6%.

Detroit Stats:

290 overall attempts

34.5% 3pt% overall

205 non-corner attempts

31.7% on non-corner 3's

85 corner attempts

42.4% on corner attempts

 

Atlanta Shot Distribution:

125 total attempts

61 non-corner attempts

64 corner attempts

Expected 3pt% based on Detroit shooting %s and Atlanta shot distribution:  

31.7% of 61 = 19 made shots

42.4% of 65 = 28 made shots

47 / 125 = 37.6% expected

 

This is why I want to see what his non-corner 3's looked like in Atlanta compared to the Detroit ones.  He shot 40% in Atlanta.  How much of that was because his better 3pt% in Atlanta on non-corner 3's was based on the offense drawing more attention from him and him getting better looks and how much was just him being hotter in Atlanta (or colder in Detroit) on the same shots?  I'd be interested to see that breakdown.

But you can see that the 34.5% in Detroit improving to a 37.6% without any change in shooting %s shows the impact of quality of shots.  And the biggest factor in that is not him making better decisions but the offense being run and his role in the offense.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Using Bey as an example, whether and how often he is in the corner is highly dependent on role and coaching.  Way more so than just whether he happens to choose to shoot a corner 3 on a given possession.  He spent way more time in the corner in Atlanta than Detroit by coach's design and that was responsible for him taking a drastically increased % of his 3pt attempts from the corner.  That change in number of corner 3's should be expected to result in a massive increase in 3pt%.

If you apply Bey's exact same 3pt% numbers as applied to the shot distribution he had in Atlanta and you assume that the non-corner 3's were of the same difficulty (which I do not accept as a premise without some actual data as I expect he got more open shots playing in Atlanta), you get an expected Atlanta 3pt% of 37.6%.

Detroit Stats:

290 overall attempts

34.5% 3pt% overall

205 non-corner attempts

31.7% on non-corner 3's

85 corner attempts

42.4% on corner attempts

 

Atlanta Shot Distribution:

125 total attempts

61 non-corner attempts

64 corner attempts

Expected 3pt% based on Detroit shooting %s and Atlanta shot distribution:  

31.7% of 61 = 19 made shots

42.4% of 65 = 28 made shots

47 / 125 = 37.6% expected

 

This is why I want to see what his non-corner 3's looked like in Atlanta compared to the Detroit ones.  He shot 40% in Atlanta.  How much of that was because his better 3pt% in Atlanta on non-corner 3's was based on the offense drawing more attention from him and him getting better looks and how much was just him being hotter in Atlanta (or colder in Detroit) on the same shots?  I'd be interested to see that breakdown.

But you can see that the 34.5% in Detroit improving to a 37.6% without any change in shooting %s shows the impact of quality of shots.  And the biggest factor in that is not him making better decisions but the offense being run and his role in the offense.

He is still the one who chose to shoot those none corner 3's.  He could have turned them all down but he didn't and that's on him

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

He is still the one who chose to shoot those none corner 3's.  He could have turned them all down but he didn't and that's on him

I'm done.  

[Peoriabird]

25 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm done.  

I'll say one more thing...We have been talking about Trae playing off the ball and moving without the years for years.  I'm sure the coaching staff has talk with Trae about this for years but he doesn't do it whereas Steph does it effortlessly and nonstop.  Trae take all kinds of non rhythm and ill advised shots all the time.  LP told Trae to stop the logo shot but they continued.  You want to make it seem as the players are robots and are in exact spot on every play but I don't.  Every play is dynamic and you may start off trying to attack a certain area only to abandon it because of the defense which result in random structure/Improvisations to the play

[h4wkfan]

40 minutes ago, AHF said:This is why I want to see what his non-corner 3's looked like in Atlanta compared to the Detroit ones.  He shot 40% in Atlanta.  How much of that was because his better 3pt% in Atlanta on non-corner 3's was based on the offense drawing more attention from him and him getting better looks and how much was just him being hotter in Atlanta (or colder in Detroit) on the same shots?  I'd be interested to see that breakdown.

 

But you can see that the 34.5% in Detroit improving to a 37.6% without any change in shooting %s shows the impact of quality of shots.  And the biggest factor in that is not him making better decisions but the offense being run and his role in the offense.

 

Interesting stuff. I was not able to pull non corner 3 numbers quickly, but a brief pass showed one of the biggest changes was He cut his pull-up 3 attempts by > 60% when comparing pre all star #s (DET) to post all star (ATL). He went from averaging 1.6 pull-up 3s a game to 1. His overall 3PT attempts dropped by .6 a game over that time frame. That shooting % on those shots did jump quite a bit too. 

Even If he kept the reduction in pull up 3 attempts, but matched his dreadful 28.7% on those looks in Detroit, he’s still a 37.5% shooter on 5+ attempts in Atlanta.

Either something clicked mentally or it seems like the coaches told him what type of shots to look for to maximize his effectiveness … 

Usually, a coach has designed spacing and sets and has told players what they are supposed to look for and these coaching instructions are highly responsible for the quality and types of attempts a player takes.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I'm done.  

This tha realistic thing he ever wrote .... 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

I'll say one more thing...We have been talking about Trae playing off the ball and moving without the years for years.  I'm sure the coaching staff has talk with Trae about this for years but he doesn't do it whereas Steph does it effortlessly and nonstop.  Trae take all kinds of non rhythm and ill advised shots all the time.  LP told Trae to stop the logo shot but they continued.  You want to make it seem as the players are robots and are in exact spot on every play but I don't.  Every play is dynamic and you may start off trying to attack a certain area only to abandon it because of the defense which result in random structure/Improvisations to the play

There is an entire offense geared to have everyone on Golden State move without the ball, and for that movement to get Curry shots.

Curry just isn't running around just to be doing it. He moves with a purpose, and so does the entire team.  That is by design.