Official Game Thread: Hawks at Bucks (7 PM EST Tip)

[Peoriabird]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Where are you getting your data?  This is not consistent with my recollection so I want to see the numbers.

I am definitely not seeing enough here to think that (a) Trae was told to never shoot them again and (b) that he refused to do so.  Even if your data is accurate, it seems like the ask was for him to take fewer of them and far from refuse he has done what the coach asked.

Trae averaged 9.5 three point attempts during his 2nd year in the league. 6.3 the following year. Coincidence?

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

How he actually played JJ and how he spoke about speaks far more about his actual intentions and belief in Jalen as a player IMO. 

So what does this mean?

In Dec last year, JJ was logging 20+ mpg for 14 games.   So are you saying that him playing JJ 20 mpg in a crowded forward field means that what he "Said" were not his actual intentions.   It's hard for me to believe that he publicly wrote Jalen off and then turned around and gave him 20+ mpg when he didn't have to.

 

 

[kg01]

I really don't understand why folks are fighting soth on the JJ thing?  We all saw him inexplicably go unplayed despite us needing (a) to develop him and (b) someone with his skillset I'm the rotation.  Soth is giving you the reason he oddly sat on the shelf.  What's the problem? 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I really don't understand why folks are fighting soth on the JJ thing?  We all saw him inexplicably go unplayed despite us needing (a) to develop him and (b) someone with his skillset I'm the rotation.  Soth is giving you the reason he oddly sat on the shelf.  What's the problem? 

For me... it's inconsistent.

He sat during his rookie year.  OK.. Even though I watched him go back and fourth to the G-League... voluntarily.... maybe because he was sitting and I also watch him be injured. 

But the inconsistence comes from 2nd Year JJ getting Starts under Nate and Playing 20 mpg over a sustained period. 

The other inconsistence comes from AJ Griffin... from the gate playing and playing up to 27 mpg. 

The other inconsistence is 2nd year OO playing 29 mpg under Nate. 

I have the reporters and the rumor mills saying Nate doesn't play players that need development and Nate prefers vets...

Well, I watched JJ and AJG play more minutes that JHoli. 

I watched OO play way more minutes than Frank the Tank. 

Next... somebody will say... They made him play the rooks.   IF that's the case... and he did it, then why was he fired?

There's a lot to not like about Nate.  For me the lack of Creativity is it.   However, it seems like there were some (not from HS) that wanted to build a case for getting rid of Nate....and statements were put out there that based on the NUMBERS.. Don't FIT. 

IF Nate felt that JJ would be out of the league and that he was a piece of Garbage on the court... What made him play JJ Last year in the month of December OVER 20 minutes per game?  I have asked this at least 3 times and People want to refer me to JJ's first year.  NO... Refer me to December of Last year.  DECEMBER 2022... and tell me why would Nate give him 6 starts and play him over 20 mpg... when JHoli was available. 

Explain to me AJG getting 40 mpg in some games last year?

 

 

[Sothron]

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So what does this mean?

In Dec last year, JJ was logging 20+ mpg for 14 games.   So are you saying that him playing JJ 20 mpg in a crowded forward field means that what he "Said" were not his actual intentions.   It's hard for me to believe that he publicly wrote Jalen off and then turned around and gave him 20+ mpg when he didn't have to.

 

 

Where was Jalen his entire rookie season? Other than setting the Hawks record for lowest minutes played ever for a first round pick? 

Jalen only got minutes last season because of overwhelming pressure from the FO, the entire coaching staff including Nate's son and the players saying this kid needs to play. 

So that's one and 2/3 season give or take that Jalen rarely played one full season and only got some minutes in the 2/3 of another season with the same head coach. The same head coach who openly said "I am not in the developing process" when asked specifically about younger guys including Jalen's playing time.

I don't know what else you need. 

[Sothron]

Just now, Diesel said:

For me... it's inconsistent.

He sat during his rookie year.  OK.. Even though I watched him go back and fourth to the G-League... voluntarily.... maybe because he was sitting and I also watch him be injured. 

But the inconsistence comes from 2nd Year JJ getting Starts under Nate and Playing 20 mpg over a sustained period. 

The other inconsistence comes from AJ Griffin... from the gate playing and playing up to 27 mpg. 

The other inconsistence is 2nd year OO playing 29 mpg under Nate. 

I have the reporters and the rumor mills saying Nate doesn't play players that need development and Nate prefers vets...

Well, I watched JJ and AJG play more minutes that JHoli. 

I watched OO play way more minutes than Frank the Tank. 

Next... somebody will say... They made him play the rooks.   IF that's the case... and he did it, then why was he fired?

There's a lot to not like about Nate.  For me the lack of Creativity is it.   However, it seems like there were some (not from HS) that wanted to build a case for getting rid of Nate....and statements were put out there that based on the NUMBERS.. Don't FIT. 

IF Nate felt that JJ would be out of the league and that he was a piece of Garbage on the court... What made him play JJ Last year in the month of December OVER 20 minutes per game?  I have asked this at least 3 times and People want to refer me to JJ's first year.  NO... Refer me to December of Last year.  DECEMBER 2022... and tell me why would Nate give him 6 starts and play him over 20 mpg... when JHoli was available. 

Explain to me AJG getting 40 mpg in some games last year?

 

 

We had injuries that allowed AJ to get minutes his rookie season. Once those injured players got healthy and the coaching staff changed AJ almost immediately stopped getting minutes. He's still not getting real minutes three games into this season.

Just tracking injuries and rotation will tell you why AJ got minutes for one moment in time last season and why those minutes stopped for him. JJ got ZERO playing time his rookie season. He barely got minutes his 2nd season due in part from injuries and from Nate getting overwhelming pressure to play him.

It is frankly pretty obvious to see. OO only got minutes because Travis literally forced Nate to play him. Nate does not believe in rookie or young players and only through external circumstances ie injuries and internal pressure did he play any young guys here in ATL.

When a coach literally tell fans and everyone else "I am not in the development process" what exactly is there to argue about?

[Diesel]

Just now, Sothron said:

Where was Jalen his entire rookie season? Other than setting the Hawks record for lowest minutes played ever for a first round pick? 

Jalen only got minutes last season because of overwhelming pressure from the FO, the entire coaching staff including Nate's son and the players saying this kid needs to play. 

So that's one and 2/3 season give or take that Jalen rarely played one full season and only got some minutes in the 2/3 of another season with the same head coach. The same head coach who openly said "I am not in the developing process" when asked specifically about younger guys including Jalen's playing time.

I don't know what else you need. 

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2021/12/15/hawks-jalen-johnson-nate-mcmillan-nba-g-league/

 

"

With playing time at a minimum in the NBA, Johnson has had the opportunity to stay sharp with the Skyhawks and continue working on his game. He is certainly making his mark in the G League and taking full advantage of the opportunity.

His willingness to stay with College Park to log extended playing time certainly shows the level of maturity he brings to the team. It looks as though he will stay in the G League but should be fully ready to contribute once his number is called in the NBA."

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2021/08/21/hawks-jalen-johnson-best-player-draft/

"Johnson knows this season will be all about his development and playing time could be limited due to the depth of the Hawks. He wants to sit back and learn and fully accept any role given to him. He is going to continue to work and be the best player he can be in Atlanta.".

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

We had injuries that allowed AJ to get minutes his rookie season. Once those injured players got healthy and the coaching staff changed AJ almost immediately stopped getting minutes. He's still not getting real minutes three games into this season.

I showed in another post, that the drop in AJ's minutes occurred when we changed coaches.   Bogi was Back.  Hunter was back.  JC was Back.  JHOLI had never gone anywhere.   AHOLI was on the roster.  We even had Culver for a second.    For a coach that prefers VETS... it's funny that all those vets were watching Nate play a ROOKIE Big minutes. 

Oh... it's was probably "Pressure from the FO". 

Ok... 

[Sothron]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2021/12/15/hawks-jalen-johnson-nate-mcmillan-nba-g-league/

 

"

With playing time at a minimum in the NBA, Johnson has had the opportunity to stay sharp with the Skyhawks and continue working on his game. He is certainly making his mark in the G League and taking full advantage of the opportunity.

His willingness to stay with College Park to log extended playing time certainly shows the level of maturity he brings to the team. It looks as though he will stay in the G League but should be fully ready to contribute once his number is called in the NBA."

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/2021/08/21/hawks-jalen-johnson-best-player-draft/

"Johnson knows this season will be all about his development and playing time could be limited due to the depth of the Hawks. He wants to sit back and learn and fully accept any role given to him. He is going to continue to work and be the best player he can be in Atlanta.".

I'll let you read your own quote there and let it sink in. The first sentence. Read that, marinate on it, and get back to us.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, Sothron said:

We had injuries that allowed AJ to get minutes his rookie season. Once those injured players got healthy and the coaching staff changed AJ almost immediately stopped getting minutes. He's still not getting real minutes three games into this season.

Just tracking injuries and rotation will tell you why AJ got minutes for one moment in time last season and why those minutes stopped for him. JJ got ZERO playing time his rookie season. He barely got minutes his 2nd season due in part from injuries and from Nate getting overwhelming pressure to play him.

It is frankly pretty obvious to see. OO only got minutes because Travis literally forced Nate to play him. Nate does not believe in rookie or young players and only through external circumstances ie injuries and internal pressure did he play any young guys here in ATL.

When a coach literally tell fans and everyone else "I am not in the development process" what exactly is there to argue about?

It's funny how our last three first round picks all played what I would call Significant minutes last season.   It's convenient that we can say a Hard ass like Nate would bow down to the FO and then get fired for following their direction. 

Think about that.   You say... Nate you have to play OO, JJ, and AJ.  He plays OO, JJ, and AJ ... even though he has Vets on the bench.   Vets who has played in his system before.   Vets who had decent stats as Journeymen.    He plays the rooks... and then you look at Nate and say.. I don't like our record... You're fired. 

If it went down that way.... come on man.

 

[Sothron]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I showed in another post, that the drop in AJ's minutes occurred when we changed coaches.   Bogi was Back.  Hunter was back.  JC was Back.  JHOLI had never gone anywhere.   AHOLI was on the roster.  We even had Culver for a second.    For a coach that prefers VETS... it's funny that all those vets were watching Nate play a ROOKIE Big minutes. 

Oh... it's was probably "Pressure from the FO". 

Ok... 

AJ got minutes last season because we had injuries. Are you actually arguing this? Good grief. Justin Holliday was trash, he wasn't getting minutes after Nate saw he had nothing left in the tank. Aaron Holiday? He's a backup PG, he's not competing with AJ or Jalen or OO for minutes. I don't even know why you would mention him.

AJ was putting the ball in the basket and had quality rotation minutes. He stopped getting those minutes once guys got healthy and the coaching staff changed. I ALREADY SAID that in my previous post. 

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I'll let you read your own quote there and let it sink in. The first sentence. Read that, marinate on it, and get back to us.

Yes.  This was before the season began... I want you to read further where he said he will SIT BACK and LEARN...

Then go to the other article that headlines... HE VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to GO to the G-League... and then HE VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to STAY in the G-League. 

Let's not talk about his rookie year because he did a lot of choosing for himself.  Maybe it may have been because of something Nate said to him... but it seemed he had his mind made up before he played one NBA game.. during Summer League... while not even have been coached by NATE.... he decided he would sit back and learn....

 

[Sothron]

Just now, Diesel said:

It's funny how our last three first round picks all played what I would call Significant minutes last season.   It's convenient that we can say a Hard ass like Nate would bow down to the FO and then get fired for following their direction. 

Think about that.   You say... Nate you have to play OO, JJ, and AJ.  He plays OO, JJ, and AJ ... even though he has Vets on the bench.   Vets who has played in his system before.   Vets who had decent stats as Journeymen.    He plays the rooks... and then you look at Nate and say.. I don't like our record... You're fired. 

If it went down that way.... come on man.

 

I never said Nate was fired solely over his reluctance to play young guys. It was a big factor into the decision. His complete inability to adjust his schemes, make in game adjustments and refusing to change for a modern NBA is what did him in. It was a culmination of all of those things. Please don't attempt to straw man here. 

[Sothron]

Just now, Diesel said:

Yes.  This was before the season began... I want you to read further where he said he will SIT BACK and LEARN...

Then go to the other article that headlines... HE VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to GO to the G-League... and then HE VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to STAY in the G-League. 

Let's not talk about his rookie year because he did a lot of choosing for himself.  Maybe it may have been because of something Nate said to him... but it seemed he had his mind made up before he played one NBA game.. during Summer League... while not even have been coached by NATE.... he decided he would sit back and learn....

 

You can't be this naïve. You can't. The entire quote you found, not me, you, said "with minutes a MINIMUM in the NBA".  Hmm...what does that mean?  Does that mean he's going to get 20+ MPG and a firm spot in a 9 man rotation (the NBA norm btw) as a rookie? No? 

What other choice does he have BUT to play in the G league when the HC isn't going to play him? I mean seriously dude. You can't be this myopic. He choose to stay in the G league because he had ZERO PLAYING time waiting for him. He also has no real choice in where he plays because the team decides it. 

When Nate wasn't going to play him as a rookie he had no choice but to waste his entire rookie season in the G league. If you think Nate loved Jalen so much...excuse my bemused chuckle here...then why did Jalen set a record for the lowest minute EVER for a Hawks first round pick?

Do you actually think Nate called up Jalen and said young blood come up to the ATL, I got 20+ MPG waiting for you and Jalen said naw, fam, I'll choose to stay in the G league. SMH

 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

J was putting the ball in the basket and had quality rotation minutes. He stopped getting those minutes once guys got healthy and the coaching staff changed. I ALREADY SAID that in my previous post. 

I heard what you said...

Nate was fired in FEB.

Nov  20.7 MPG

DEC  27.0 MPG

JAN 18.8 MPG

FEB 17.1 MPG

March 14.3 MPG.

Again.. Nate was fired FEB 22...  Here's AJ's game Log....

Note the MPG...

Notice when they began to drop off...

Oh.. You thought I was finished....

Guess who was coaching here??  Wasn't Nate.

I guess all the guys were back ... right...

 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

You can't be this naïve. You can't. The entire quote you found, not me, you, said "with minutes a MINIMUM in the NBA".  Hmm...what does that mean?  Does that mean he's going to get 20+ MPG and a firm spot in a 9 man rotation (the NBA norm btw) as a rookie? No? 

What other choice does he have BUT to play in the G league when the HC isn't going to play him? I mean seriously dude. You can't be this myopic. He choose to stay in the G league because he had ZERO PLAYING time waiting for him. He also has no real choice in where he plays because the team decides it. 

When Nate wasn't going to play him as a rookie he had no choice but to waste his entire rookie season in the G league. If you think Nate loved Jalen so much...excuse my bemused chuckle here...then why did Jalen set a record for the lowest minute EVER for a Hawks first round pick?

Do you actually think Nate called up Jalen and said young blood come up to the ATL, I got 20+ MPG waiting for you and Jalen said naw, fam, I'll choose to stay in the G league. SMH

 

Again.. Before JJ had played 1 moment of NBA Basketball  he made 2 statements...

1.  I know I'm the best player in the draft. 

2.  I know that there are a lot of players playing 3 and 4 for the Hawks so my first year will be spent sitting back and learning. 

This was a summer league statement. 

He may have met Nate 1 time here...  So this is not because Nate said.. you're sitting.   This is what he came to the team believing. 

 

He follows this statement up by asking to go to the G-League.  Then Asking to stay in the G-League. 

When he comes back to the team next year...

NATE PLAYS HIM??!??!?????????

Damn... NATE PLAYED JJ... Up to 20 mpg...

Oh... it was FO pressure. 

Oh... it was because everybody else was hurt and Nate had no choice.

Come on You can't be this Naive. 

 

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I heard what you said...

Nate was fired in FEB.

Nov  20.7 MPG

DEC  27.0 MPG

JAN 18.8 MPG

FEB 17.1 MPG

March 14.3 MPG.

Again.. Nate was fired FEB 22...  Here's AJ's game Log....

Note the MPG...

Notice when they began to drop off...

Oh.. You thought I was finished....

Guess who was coaching here??  Wasn't Nate.

I guess all the guys were back ... right...

 

So you just agreed with me, again, that AJ stopped getting minutes when the coaching change happened. 

 

[Sothron]

Just now, Diesel said:

Again.. Before JJ had played 1 moment of NBA Basketball  he made 2 statements...

1.  I know I'm the best player in the draft. 

2.  I know that there are a lot of players playing 3 and 4 for the Hawks so my first year will be spent sitting back and learning. 

This was a summer league statement. 

He may have met Nate 1 time here...  So this is not because Nate said.. you're sitting.   This is what he came to the team believing. 

 

He follows this statement up by asking to go to the G-League.  Then Asking to stay in the G-League. 

When he comes back to the team next year...

NATE PLAYS HIM??!??!?????????

Damn... NATE PLAYED JJ... Up to 20 mpg...

Oh... it was FO pressure. 

Oh... it was because everybody else was hurt and Nate had no choice.

Come on You can't be this Naive. 

 

Could it possibly be that when the Hawks drafted him he was told what to expect from Nate? Could it possibly be that when Jalen played so little at Duke that he thought spending SOME time in the G league was inevitable BUT he would be called up and put into the rotation? Was it possible that when Jalen was there with Nate that didn't use him at all his rookie season and Jalen realized getting ANY MINUTES is better than sitting on the bench?

This back and forth is just silly. You already have campster chiming in on this as well. It is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes that Nate did not believe in Jalen and it showed in spades. You are being contrarian for no reason other than to be contrarian.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

So you just agreed with me, again, that AJ stopped getting minutes when the coaching change happened. 

 

Yeah.. we agree there.. when Nate was fired... AJ  our rookie... stopped getting minutes.     Now go ahead and explain to us how it was Travis Schlenk's mighty hand and our IL that forced NATE to keep playing AJ until the day he was fired. 

AJ and OO's minutes is the reason I have trouble believing people who say that JJ didn't play because he was a rookie. 

Try this theory on for size....

There were people who wanted Nate out.   They flooded the media with reports that "Nate doesn't play Rookies and will not develop players."  And everytime Nate played a rookie or a player that needed development, their comeback to the media was... "OH, the FO made him do that." 

Nate was an easy target because of his past...  Even though he played Oladipo, Sabonis, and Brogdon as rookies... it's easy to believe that Nate is a hard ass that don't like young players and prefer vets. 

 

[Sothron]

Just now, Diesel said:

Yeah.. we agree there.. when Nate was fired... AJ  our rookie... stopped getting minutes.     Now go ahead and explain to us how it was Travis Schlenk's mighty hand and our IL that forced NATE to keep playing AJ until the day he was fired. 

AJ and OO's minutes is the reason I have trouble believing people who say that JJ didn't play because he was a rookie. 

Try this theory on for size....

There were people who wanted Nate out.   They flooded the media with reports that "Nate doesn't play Rookies and will not develop players."  And everytime Nate played a rookie or a player that needed development, their comeback to the media was... "OH, the FO made him do that." 

Nate was an easy target because of his past...  Even though he played Oladipo, Sabonis, and Brogdon as rookies... it's easy to believe that Nate is a hard ass that don't like young players and prefer vets. 

 

I can verify this last part of your post. Yes, there were people in the team that strongly disliked Nate's style of coaching and his player development and rotations. That is true. I can't verify they flooded the media with reports trying to tarnish Nate but it sounds more than realistic since that's how inner office NBA politics plays out especially since social media became a thing.

I don't care enough to go back and find this but there were reports that Nate was refusing to play OO as a rookie and Travis told Nate he had to play them. I know you don't believe my sources but this was out there in the media. I know that did happen from my sources that Nate wasn't going to play OO but Travis stepped in.

Telling a coach to play the sixth pick in the draft  when we didn't have much for BU centers is different from telling the coach to play the 20th pick with limited college experience or the 15th pick with one year at college as a third option on offense. So yes, the pressure to play OO was a direct "you will play him" versus JJ/AJ since you are bringing OO up so much.

Nate due to injury and situation has played SOME rookies/young guys in the past. Those were different situations with different teams. Nate specifically said "I am not in the development process" in public when asked about playing time for young players while our HC. He said that. No one forced him to say that. That wasn't a Hawks FO person or someone in the organization with an axe to grind about Nate. 

Nate tried using these veterans  you talked about last season and they were either garbage or didn't really have a role (Aaron Holiday) and that role had nothing to do with whatever minutes JJ/AJ/OO would get since BU PG is not on any of their resumes.

You can show all the charts you want about AJ's playing time. He only got initial playing time due to injuries. He kept a role in the rotation because his shooting kept him too valuable to bench. When Quin came in and the production from AJ started to drop then AJ's minutes were cut down to basically in and out of the rotation, mostly out. JJ got those minutes and IIRC Quin said in public the last rotation spot was between JJ and AJ and he would go with the hot hand at that time.

We actually agree about this. I'm not sure why this is being brought up. Seriously. I don't.