Steve Koonin

[JTB]

I like the idea of Jalen Johnson being our starting PF. I actually have high hopes for him. I love the kids playmaking also…I bet that’s what Synder is falling in love with .

[Final_quest]

7 hours ago, sturt said:

By definition, because the Raptors are no fools, you were going to have to give up at least what is conventionally perceived as equal talent value for Siakam.

It solves nothing basketball-wise, then, to make that deal. You're losing about the same as you're gaining.... ie, after having lost already a starter-quality talent.

 

Here's the essentials of the journey just experienced. The talent inventory on this roster was up significantly last off-season with the addition of DJM.

Then, almost as suddenly it was down a Huerter with nothing coming back to balance that out.

Until, that is, 2/3 into the season, sending 6 2nds out for Bey.

And by most accounts, the team played well, even played extremely well at times... even, at times, the performance level envisioned when the DJM deal was originally made.

And now, giving up JC for nothing? Yeah. No draft pick inventory to make up for his loss in another Bey-like trade. The hope is for JJ to be just as good as JC, but not just that... remember, you have to also see someone back-up JJ at a level somewhat equivalent to what he already has shown.

But wait... that's just to get to where you were at the end of last season. What you need is someone who's going to make the team even better than the last time the team took the court. Thus, the grand hope that JJ will not just be "as good," but substantially better than JC.

 

Good luck with that. And that's not a snarky comment. I hope it works out for you guys. And it could. Especially with Quinn running things. Who knows.

This is also not a snarky comment.  You begin by saying no franchise gives up talent in a trade without an equivalent exchange and go on to describe the Hawks giving up talent without an equivalent exchange as your reason for giving up on the team.  

As long as there is a salary cap mixed with outrageously high free agent signings, teams are forced to make difficult choices and trade some talent away at less of a return than they wanted.  

[sturt]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

You begin by saying no franchise gives up talent in a trade without an equivalent exchange

Quote me please so I know what you're referencing.

I may have said something that you interpreted that way (?), but whatever words you read that I would have written were not intended that way. I know. Because I don't believe that. And I don't write things that I don't believe.

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

and go on to describe the Hawks giving up talent without an equivalent exchange as your reason for giving up on the team.  

Yes and no. I've given up on the team because unlike the prime perennial contenders who make deals without any apparent serious heartburn at paying tax, this team is so stomach upset that it will actually move a starter for nothing... and did so, now, twice... in the space of two years. And yet, the owner wants everyone to believe what he wants everyone to believe. I don't trust the owner. And I shouldn't at this point. No one should, imo. His behaviors over the last year and the comments he's made are duplicitous at times, incoherent with the evidence at other times, and self-serving always. I've seen this movie too many times to not know in my heart what's far more likely next... hamster wheel status.

Ressler is Lucy, dangling the football. But I'm not Charlie Brown. At least, not anymore.

 

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

As long as there is a salary cap mixed with outrageously high free agent signings, teams are forced to make difficult choices and trade some talent away at less of a return than they wanted.  

Right. And. It was/is a myth that this team would ever be on the good end (talent) of such an equation at this point.

 

[Final_quest]

19 hours ago, sturt said:

By definition, because the Raptors are no fools, you were going to have to give up at least what is conventionally perceived as equal talent value for Siakam.

It solves nothing basketball-wise, then, to make that deal. You're losing about the same as you're gaining.... ie, after having lost already a starter-quality talent.

This is where you seem to be saying a trade must involve equivalent talent.  Anyways, after reading your last post it sounds more like you believe that is unique to our front office or just unique to Toronto/Siakam where we have to give other teams equal talent back in a trade.  

I personally think they made an honest effort to upgrade the roster after trading JC.  A lot of deals just didn't seem to happen this summer like Dame and Harden.  Got my sights set on the mid season trade deadline as our next opportunity.  

[AHF]

On 9/1/2023 at 11:32 PM, sturt said:

By definition, because the Raptors are no fools, you were going to have to give up at least what is conventionally perceived as equal talent value for Siakam.

 

You have to be a fool to expect to get what is conventionally perceived as equal value when one side is trading a player or players who are expiring UFA(s) and the other side is trading player(s) with much more team control.  Conventional wisdom says the team trading the expiring deal takes a significant haircut to make the deal happen.

[AHF]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:41 AM, sturt said:

And. It was/is a myth that this team would ever be on the good end (talent) of such an equation at this point.

 

That was exactly the case in trades like where we got Bey, Capela and Korver.

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

That was exactly the case in trades like where we got Bey, Capela and Korver.

Bey - no defense; Capela - no offense; Korver - no defense.  All the people you mention had notable shortcomings.  It isn't like we got "complete players" in any of those deals.  They are limited role players.  Decent role players, but not players that were going to put us over the top.

[Watchman]

On 8/26/2023 at 11:06 AM, sturt said:

I love camp, but this mindset is absolutely insane to me, from the standpoint of anyone who has been a ATL fan for more than 20 years.

Iow...

"They're highly distinguished authorities in their profession... an owner and front office whose decisions are always and completely about winning championships... and so their decisions are indisputably cogent, and it's not like any of us have any choice in the matter anyhow but to be submissive since we're all slaves to their religion. So, look, getting rid of John Collins represents an improvement for the roster... addition by subtraction... keeping him was holding us back... we're better without him... a logical impossibility to give JJ as many or more minutes than JC, so stop yer yammerin."

(Oh. I get it now, Steve. Thanks.)

Or, more concisely for the TL/DR types, and you know who you are...

Koonin translation:  "We saved my bosses some money, and that is the important thing. "

[AHF]

7 hours ago, Watchman said:

Bey - no defense; Capela - no offense; Korver - no defense.  All the people you mention had notable shortcomings.  It isn't like we got "complete players" in any of those deals.  They are limited role players.  Decent role players, but not players that were going to put us over the top.

Most players fall into this category - ie players with a limitation who won’t put a team over the top by themselves.  The claim was that the Hawks are always on the short end of the stick and don’t get players in trades without giving up at least equivalent talent.  These examples prove that to be false but feel free to go with Mookie Blalock or Joe Johnson, etc. if they feel like more two-way players for you.
 

With regard to these players I mentioned, Capela led the league in rebounding and the team in advanced metrics.  Nobody will confuse him for LeBron but that is very meaningful production in my book.  Korver was the most important cog on offense in a the most exciting Hawks offense of say the last 15 years and an All-Star to boot.  His defense was better than I expected even though I’d concede he wasn’t a star defender by any means.  I don’t think that team wins 60 games without him.  Bey - I’ll say too early to truly judge that one.  I mentioned it because it was very recent and any trade where we give up only second round picks is a cheap price.  Given the price, I think we clearly got the better end of the talent divide which was the original discussion point.

I think just as we clearly lost the Huerter and JC trades from a talent perspective that we have clearly won some trades too.  The mere fact that Huerter isn’t a “complete player” who will put any team “over the top” doesn’t mean we didn’t lose that trade clearly from a talent/value perspective just like a similar wrap around players we acquired doesn’t mean we didn’t clearly get better value back with those trades.

Given that the discussion started with frustration over KH and JC I don’t think “complete player who pushes his team over the top” is a useful standard.

[Watchman]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

Most players fall into this category - ie players with a limitation who won’t put a team over the top by themselves.  The claim was that the Hawks are always on the short end of the stick and don’t get players in trades without giving up at least equivalent talent.  These examples prove that to be false but feel free to go with Mookie Blalock or Joe Johnson, etc. if they feel like more two-way players for you.
 

With regard to these players I mentioned, Capela led the league in rebounding and the team in advanced metrics.  Nobody will confuse him for LeBron but that is very meaningful production in my book.  Korver was the most important cog on offense in a the most exciting Hawks offense of say the last 15 years and an All-Star to boot.  His defense was better than I expected even though I’d concede he wasn’t a star defender by any means.  I don’t think that team wins 60 games without him.  Bey - I’ll say too early to truly judge that one.  I mentioned it because it was very recent and any trade where we give up only second round picks is a cheap price.  Given the price, I think we clearly got the better end of the talent divide which was the original discussion point.

I think just as we clearly lost the Huerter and JC trades from a talent perspective that we have clearly won some trades too.  The mere fact that Huerter isn’t a “complete player” who will put any team “over the top” doesn’t mean we didn’t lose that trade clearly from a talent/value perspective just like a similar wrap around players we acquired doesn’t mean we didn’t clearly get better value back with those trades.

Given that the discussion started with frustration over KH and JC I don’t think “complete player who pushes his team over the top” is a useful standard.

Given Koonin's statement, I am shocked.  You don't improve a team by giving away a good player for garbage. He is the PR man for the Ressler family. All we did was save the Resslers some money.  That is what is disgusting.  It's not like Collins was a locker room cancer or something.  Interesting the players they choose to overpay and not give it a second thought, and those they will in the future, so that they will remain in a perpetual cap crisis.  Maybe they'll continue to get "trade exceptions" that are worthless, junk players and second rounders.  The recipe for success, it is not.

[Vol4ever]

On 9/2/2023 at 6:30 PM, Final_quest said:

This is where you seem to be saying a trade must involve equivalent talent.  Anyways, after reading your last post it sounds more like you believe that is unique to our front office or just unique to Toronto/Siakam where we have to give other teams equal talent back in a trade.  

I personally think they made an honest effort to upgrade the roster after trading JC.  A lot of deals just didn't seem to happen this summer like Dame and Harden.  Got my sights set on the mid season trade deadline as our next opportunity.  

It's the same ole hawks story the last 25 years.  This franchise is and always has been on the Kmart low end of the NBA with management that has no clue.  

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Watchman said:

Given Koonin's statement, I am shocked.  You don't improve a team by giving away a good player for garbage. He is the PR man for the Ressler family. All we did was save the Resslers some money.  That is what is disgusting.  It's not like Collins was a locker room cancer or something.  Interesting the players they choose to overpay and not give it a second thought, and those they will in the future, so that they will remain in a perpetual cap crisis.  Maybe they'll continue to get "trade exceptions" that are worthless, junk players and second rounders.  The recipe for success, it is not.

What has shocked you?  Unless I missed something Koonin’s statement is not at all shocking to me.  Obviously, sturt’s satire air quote “quote” of it isn’t the actual statement (maybe I missed Koonin saying fans have no choice but to be slaves to the religion the owner and front office are selling but I’m pretty sure that was sturt’s own take on the situation while Koonin’s statement was more more expected trying to find the silver lining on not getting a trade done by pitching the idea that JJ and other young players getting those minutes is a good thing.  What else is he supposed to say?

Whether we made a bad deal or not with JC (we did for 2023-24 basketball purposes) has nothing to do with my exchange with you above.  That can be true and it is still true that we have won some lopsided deals in our own favor.  The CC and Korver deals are actually great analogs for the JC and Huerter trades both in terms of talent imbalance and how good the players involved are.

[Watchman]

15 hours ago, AHF said:

What has shocked you?  Unless I missed something Koonin’s statement is not at all shocking to me.  Obviously, sturt’s satire air quote “quote” of it isn’t the actual statement (maybe I missed Koonin saying fans have no choice but to be slaves to the religion the owner and front office are selling but I’m pretty sure that was sturt’s own take on the situation while Koonin’s statement was more more expected trying to find the silver lining on not getting a trade done by pitching the idea that JJ and other young players getting those minutes is a good thing.  What else is he supposed to say?

Whether we made a bad deal or not with JC (we did for 2023-24 basketball purposes) has nothing to do with my exchange with you above.  That can be true and it is still true that we have won some lopsided deals in our own favor.  The CC and Korver deals are actually great analogs for the JC and Huerter trades both in terms of talent imbalance and how good the players involved are.

The part where Koonin said we had addition by subtraction.  If I were Collins, when I came to ATL, I would be sure to make him eat those words.  There was no need for Koonin to be insulting.

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, Watchman said:

The part where Koonin said we had addition by subtraction.  If I were Collins, when I came to ATL, I would be sure to make him eat those words.  There was no need for Koonin to be insulting.

I don't think he meant it as insulting (more just that his departure will open the door for other exciting players) but I can see that.  

I'm definitely fascinated to see how JC plays this season and what role he ends up with in Utah.  Will he play some center so he can be on the floor with Lauri?  Could see it shaking out a bunch of different ways.  In any case, I think his finger improved over the course of last season and that he is set for a much stronger season next year at least on a per minute basis.  

[sturt]

On 9/3/2023 at 6:44 PM, AHF said:

You have to be a fool to expect to get what is conventionally perceived as equal value when one side is trading a player or players who are expiring UFA(s) and the other side is trading player(s) with much more team control.  Conventional wisdom says the team trading the expiring deal takes a significant haircut to make the deal happen.

 

(Forgive me if I'm reading into the reply to my comment something that wasn't intended.)

There's never been (to my understanding anyway) any pretense that Siakam was going to be traded for peanuts... ie, a significant haircut, then, for TOR.

Indeed, if the 8/8 report was accurate that Hunter and Griffin were part of the package being offered for Siakam, that's a lot for a guy whose numbers of late have mostly resembled the same numbers that Baptist was giving you. (IIRC, their FiveThirtyEight RAPTOR scores have been practically identical.)

It is much more like approximate equal talent value than it is a haircut for TOR. There may have been an upgrade in terms of name recognition, mainly b/c years ago Siakam was part of a championship team. Was never any realistic aspiration for significant gain in terms of talent inventory for the head coach to deploy. It's mostly a wash.

 

The logic I laid out undergirding the hamster-wheel conclusion made remains stout. But good luck to you all. I'm not omniscient, I can't pretend to know what the future holds, and anything is possible. I can only claim to know history, and that history is so often a really good teacher as to what is more likely to happen than not.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, sturt said:

 

There's never been (to my understanding anyway) any pretense that Siakam was going to be traded for peanuts... ie, a significant haircut, then, for TOR.

Indeed, if the 8/8 report was accurate that Hunter and Griffin were part of the package being offered for Siakam, that's a lot for a guy whose numbers of late have mostly resembled the same numbers that Baptist was giving you. (IIRC, their FiveThirtyEight RAPTOR scores have been practically identical.)

 

Can we see those numbers please, to put them in the proper context?

[thecampster]

Incoming Huerter criticism. Nobody say the world is ending.

 

I'm noticing a pattern the types of players we are retaining and letting go. Everyone allowed to walk had a habit of disappearing. Except for the game 7, Huerter has a reputation for disappearing in games and down the stretch.  That's been Collins for almost 3 years. Bey - motor, Murray - motor, Trey - mighty mouse motor, OO, motor. 

 

I'm not going to pass judgement as quickly as Sturt. I'm seeing a culture being developed or at least, I'm hoping that's what I'm seeing. I'm willing to let it play out this year to see if effort, "team" and unified focus wins out.

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Incoming Huerter criticism. Nobody say the world is ending.

 

I'm noticing a pattern the types of players we are retaining and letting go. Everyone allowed to walk had a habit of disappearing. Except for the game 7, Huerter has a reputation for disappearing in games and down the stretch.  That's been Collins for almost 3 years. Bey - motor, Murray - motor, Trey - mighty mouse motor, OO, motor. 

 

I'm not going to pass judgement as quickly as Sturt. I'm seeing a culture being developed or at least, I'm hoping that's what I'm seeing. I'm willing to let it play out this year to see if effort, "team" and unified focus wins out.

I agree. Idk if I would use motor but I feel what you’re saying.

I made the comment last offseason that we would ultimately have to choose between Huerter and Bogi after getting Murray. Huerter has great moments but Bogi can sustain a higher level of play for longer stretches, across more games.

So, consistency was easily the deciding factor in my opinion. And it played itself out again last season. For all the bellyaching about Huerter he basically no called no showed in the playoffs shooting 35%fg and 20%3pt, whereas Bogi was phenomenal 55.5%fg and 45.6% 3pt.

You see it on the national stage, Bogi is just tougher mentally and raises his play vs adversity.

With JC, there is no 1 to 1 comparison, but Bey and OO are just scrappier, tougher players overall. You don’t see them always ending up on the floor or getting pushed off their spot in the post by smaller players. I trust JC as an experienced leader, but I genuinely trust Bey and OO more to go mix it up and not end up on the losing end of physical play.

[macdaddy]

On 9/10/2023 at 9:32 AM, thecampster said:

Incoming Huerter criticism. Nobody say the world is ending.

 

I'm noticing a pattern the types of players we are retaining and letting go. Everyone allowed to walk had a habit of disappearing. Except for the game 7, Huerter has a reputation for disappearing in games and down the stretch.  That's been Collins for almost 3 years. Bey - motor, Murray - motor, Trey - mighty mouse motor, OO, motor. 

 

I'm not going to pass judgement as quickly as Sturt. I'm seeing a culture being developed or at least, I'm hoping that's what I'm seeing. I'm willing to let it play out this year to see if effort, "team" and unified focus wins out.

This is a great point.  Honestly it may be why Capela is still here too.   Despite the fact we may never see Patty Mills suit up he fits that mold too. 

I'll say this about Hunter though.  He seems very coachable and effort is something that can be improved either through positive and/or negative reinforcement.  

[sturt]

North... cited RAPTOR. I'd looked it up months ago... believe I examined numbers and graphs of last 3 seasons.

 

Camp, if you're suggesting there is an alternative explanation for why two starter quality talents were sent away in exchange for zero talent in return... in two consecutive off seasons... Have to say that's not like you.