Official Game Thread: Hawks at Thunder

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Uhhh, the post moves he made were just one shot moves, once again, if he has to make more than two moves, he's not going to make the shot or he's going to get fouled and not make the free throw.

It also looks like he's seen as the fourth option by even the coach in what I saw.

The post scores that he had were from a willingness of the PG or whoever had the ball to drive and kick or even a pass into the post.  BUT.. when you watch the team settle for just shooting jumper after Jumper and the PG is a part of that mix... then stop trying to say it's because Howard would have to make too many moves?  Drive and dish...  It helps both the post and the shooters.   You can't say enough words to justify THJr getting 17 shots to D8s 6 shots when D8 is shooting 67%... there are not enough words and the argument falls on deaf ears...

Bottom line is that the Hawks will have to work for some of these baskets and stop settling for long jumpers. 

BTW...  Dwight doesn't have to be an assist guy... his job is FINISHER.  So stop trying to make him into Al The SAWFTY Horford.  When you have a paint scorer, he is a black hole. 

 

[marco102]

I'm just going to leave this here and let it stew.  

DATE	OPP	SCORE	MIN	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Mon 12/19	@   OKC	W 110-108	40	10-16	.625	1-3	.333	10-10	1.000	5	8	0	0	1	4	31
Sat 12/17	vs   CHA	L 99-107	32	6-12	.500	0-0	.000	0-2	.000	4	6	0	0	4	4	12
Fri 12/16	@   TOR	W 125-121	29	8-12	.667	2-4	.500	6-7	.857	2	6	0	1	4	3	24
Tue 12/13	vs   ORL	L 120-131	34	7-16	.438	3-5	.600	2-2	1.000	1	13	0	2	3	4	19
Fri 12/9	@   MIL	W 114-110	40	12-19	.632	4-7	.571	5-5	1.000	3	4	1	1	4	7	33
Wed 12/7	vs   MIA	W 103-95	31	8-15	.533	1-2	.500	0-0	.000	4	7	1	1	2	2	17
Mon 12/5	vs   OKC	L 99-102	34	6-15	.400	1-2	.500	4-4	1.000	6	8	0	2	1	2	17
Sat 12/3	@   TOR	L 84-128	24	7-14	.500	0-1	.000	1-1	1.000	1	6	0	1	0	1	15
Fri 12/2	vs   DET	L 85-121	25	7-13	.538	1-2	.500	2-3	.667	2	11	0	0	0	1	17
December			32.1	7.9-14.7	.538	1.4-2.9	.500	3.3-3.8	.882	3.1	7.7	0.2	0.9	2.1	3.1	20.6

You can say what you want about Dennis, but in December, he is playing at an Allstar level.  To say he is not getting his teammates involved is disingenuous (7,7 assists says otherwise). I'm really excited about Dennis going forward.  He's the Hawk's present and future. 

Of all the things to complain about on this team our 23 year old point guard is the least of our worries as of late...

[Diesel]

21 minutes ago, kg01 said:

 However, what do we always say come playoff time?  Man, the Hawks need a guy that can go out and put up a 15pt quarter or a guy that can get a shot when we need it.  Is Dennis not kinda doing that .. at least a little bit?

Some of us call for a scorer.  I'm happy with the versatility to beat a team various ways like GS.  However, what I normally say come playoff time is:

DAMN I wish Horf would get in there and fight for a freakin rebound.  Damn they are making Mozgov and Thompson look like World beaters.  Damn.  If we could have just stop them from getting all those second point opportunities, we would have beaten them.  Damn.. they brutalized us on the glass.  What the Hell is Horford doing on the three point line?  Damn.  Did Horford only get 8 rebounds for the whole freaken Series??  Tristan Thompson doubled that in game 1. 

That has normally been my refrain for the past two years.  I hope that that will change this year.  To finally get a win over the cavs earlier this year gave me great hope. 

 

 

[lethalweapon3]

FWIW, one other reason as to why D8 wasn't getting many touches (or taking shots) versus the Hornets (re: C-Viv's second sentence)...

(Reporting on the origin of his back trouble, post-Toronto and pre-Charlotte, didn't come until post-OKC game)

Thankfully, he was good enough to fight for rebounds (23 of them, 13 in the second half), granting the Hawks a few extra chances while helping Millsap terminate Charlotte's possessions (besides, who else was gonna do that... Muskie?)

I sense the team knew Dwight was toughing it out, and it doesn't seem as though the team (not just Dennis) were looking for him to do much more than cleaning up missed shots (his P&R defensive activity was especially suspect in the 4th). I'd have gotten Hump in there to chip in, since Moose is such a mess right now, but that's just me.

~lw3

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Some of us call for a scorer.  I'm happy with the versatility to beat a team various ways like GS.  However, what I normally say come playoff time is:

DAMN I wish Horf would get in there and fight for a freakin rebound.  Damn they are making Mozgov and Thompson look like World beaters.  Damn.  If we could have just stop them from getting all those second point opportunities, we would have beaten them.  Damn.. they brutalized us on the glass.  What the Hell is Horford doing on the three point line?  Damn.  Did Horford only get 8 rebounds for the whole freaken Series??  Tristan Thompson doubled that in game 1. 

That has normally been my refrain for the past two years.  I hope that that will change this year.  To finally get a win over the cavs earlier this year gave me great hope. 

 

 

Brolio, i think there's only 1 dude here that wasn't singing that refrain the last 2 years.

So, that's a given.  Once that's done, we all see that they were also able to shut us down because they knew where we wanted/needed to get the ball in order to score.  There was no randomness to how we score.  Perhaps Dennis and his controlled aggression is what the doctor ordered.  Get the flaws out now, profit later?

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

3.1

20.6

You can say what you want about Dennis, but in December, he is playing at an Allstar level.  To say he is not getting his teammates involved is disingenuous (7,7 assists says otherwise). I'm really excited about Dennis going forward.  He's the Hawk's present and future. 

Nobody doubts that he's playing at a high level and he's the present and future.  However, 7.7 assists doesn't tell the whole story. 

For instance.  For the month of December, we lead the league in 3 pters Assisted.  I would suggest to you that alot of Dennis' assists came from passing to a three point shooter.   Whereas, we suck in Midrange and we're top 5 in point assisted in the paint.   In all of that, with Dennis playing at an allstar level, we are 4-5 record wise and we have guys who are not scoring... I know some guys may be in a slump.  However, the eye test shows that Dennis doesn't get guys involved enough.   An offense has to be coaxed.   A PG has to do more than just get the stats of assists but to run the offense, there are some times when he has to be vital in getting a player going.  We have the offensive firepower to BLOW TEAMS out of the building... and we're 4-5.   But.. Dennis will make the allstar team. Maybe Wall will be there with him. 

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, lethalweapon3 said:

FWIW, one other reason as to why D8 wasn't getting many touches (or taking shots) versus the Hornets (re: C-Viv's second sentence)...

(Reporting on the origin of his back trouble, post-Toronto and pre-Charlotte, didn't come until post-OKC game)

Thankfully, he was good enough to fight for rebounds (23 of them, 13 in the second half), granting the Hawks a few extra chances while helping Millsap terminate Charlotte's possessions (besides, who else was gonna do that... Muskie?)

I sense the team knew Dwight was toughing it out, and it doesn't seem as though the team (not just Dennis) were looking for him to do much more than cleaning up missed shots (his P&R defensive activity was especially suspect in the 4th). I'd have gotten Hump in there to chip in, since Moose is such a mess right now, but that's just me.

~lw3

That being said.. don't play him 34 minutes vs. the Hornets.    

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Brolio, i think there's only 1 dude here that wasn't singing that refrain the last 2 years.

So, that's a given.  Once that's done, we all see that they were also able to shut us down because they knew where we wanted/needed to get the ball in order to score.  There was no randomness to how we score.  Perhaps Dennis and his controlled aggression is what the doctor ordered.  Get the flaws out now, profit later?

I agree.. and as you note, I said... it's going to take time.   Also, We did run the Dennis versatility against them in the playoffs last year.    I think the biggest difference maker will be rebounds... but just when we get the rebounds together... our defense sucks.   IT takes time. 

 

 

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Nobody doubts that he's playing at a high level and he's the present and future.  However, 7.7 assists doesn't tell the whole story. 

For instance.  For the month of December, we lead the league in 3 pters Assisted.  I would suggest to you that alot of Dennis' assists came from passing to a three point shooter.   Whereas, we suck in Midrange and we're top 5 in point assisted in the paint.   In all of that, with Dennis playing at an allstar level, we are 4-5 record wise and we have guys who are not scoring... I know some guys may be in a slump.  However, the eye test shows that Dennis doesn't get guys involved enough.   An offense has to be coaxed.   A PG has to do more than just get the stats of assists but to run the offense, there are some times when he has to be vital in getting a player going.  We have the offensive firepower to BLOW TEAMS out of the building... and we're 4-5.   But.. Dennis will make the allstar team. Maybe Wall will be there with him. 

 

 

 

 

Eye test?  My eye test says yes he can get his teammates involved, but him passing to our ice cold wings won't be winning us anymore games than his current performance.  The problem is NOT with Dennis, Sap, or Howard.  The problem all season has been our wings.  If we had 3 wings on our team that shoot 50% from midrange and 35 - 40% from 3 do you think Dennis would be taking as many shots?  NO, cause coach would say pass the ball to the great shooters.  At times, he's our only offense cause no one else can create or hit a wide ass open shot.  

You may have some agenda or something, all I'm saying is to say that the problem lies with Dennis not getting others involved is absolutely incorrect when passing the ball to these "others" 75% percent of the time results in a missed shot or turnover. 

[lethalweapon3]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That being said.. don't play him 34 minutes vs. the Hornets.    

It was kinda like Bud talking 'bout how he'll keep an eye on Baze's minutes...

...then watching him on the floor for a team-high 40 minutes in his first game as a returning starter.

~lw3

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I agree.. and as you note, I said... it's going to take time.   Also, We did run the Dennis versatility against them in the playoffs last year.    I think the biggest difference maker will be rebounds... but just when we get the rebounds together... our defense sucks.   IT takes time. 

 

 

Totally agree.  It's why we should probably back off the ledge a bit with this early-season struggle.  I keep saying I expected us to be about .500 then come on late once we figure thangs out (that sound you heard was my shoulder popping out as I pat myself on the bak).

Once we figure out the right balance on O and get the defense back in the road, we're gonna be a dangerous team especially now that we'll be under the radar.

[Sarcatic1]

Dennis is playing some damn good ball right now so I don't see how one can complain about his play. He had some struggles but it looks like he is getting it. I'm sure he will have another stretch where he  looks bad but dude is going to be fine. He just has to cut down on the turnovers.

We don't have scorers so he has to look for his offense a little more than some point guards.  Thats more about our personnel than him as a pg.

His good play hasn't lead to much team success so far but once again that  is more due to the lack of talent on this roster.

[rd79]

@Diesel it seems you think Basketball is a video game. D8 is still tagged Superstar in your NBA2k09 game and some hacker seemed to give him the post up tag too. And Dennis hasn't the great playmaker tag CP3 has... And Dennis just doesn't want to press x to pass the ball. 

In the real world teams try to cover pass lanes to missmatches and if Tim frees himself with an open pass lane while D8 camps in the paint waiting for the next 3 sec call without trying to get free it will be Tims shot. It was D8 choise to simply wait for the ball in such situations. 

"Doesn't involve other weapons" is annother term for "doesn't run the offense" and means nothing other than "I don't know why but I want to blame him for something and don't want/know how to do it right.

By the way: what are our other weapons outside of our big three SAP, D8 & Dennis?

Dennis had some really scrappy games this season but the last games there isn't that much to blame on him. Not sure he can hold this pace but I'm enjoying his recent performances

 

[macdaddy]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 We have the offensive firepower to BLOW TEAMS out of the building... and we're 4-5.   But.. Dennis will make the allstar team. Maybe Wall will be there with him. 

 

 

 

 

Uh...what?   This is a wild exagerration.  In fact, it's not an exagerration it's just false.   What are you basing this on?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

That's really only describing the NYK version. He played well for Minn and other points on the map before the end there. Dennis reminds me of him a great deal except for the mental issues and being better on defense. Marbury did make some All Star games so it wasn't like he was some scrub out there.

Min with Marbury 51% winning%:

96-97 40 wins

97-98 45 wins

98-99 25 wins (.500 record)

Min after Marbury 60% winning%:

99-00 50 wins

00-01 47 wins

01-02 50 wins

 

NJ with Marbury :

Yr1 16 wins (.320 record)

Yr2 31 wins

Yr3 26 wins

NJ after Marbury :

Yr1 52 wins

Yr2 49 wins

Yr3 47 wins

 

Phoenix with Marbury:

Yr 1 36 wins

Yr 2 44 wins

Yr 3 29 wins

Phoenix after Marbury:

Yr1 62 wins

Yr2 54 wins

Yr3 61 wins

 

This is his career before NYK.

[Sothron]

35 minutes ago, AHF said:

Min with Marbury 51% winning%:

96-97 40 wins

97-98 45 wins

98-99 25 wins (.500 record)

Min after Marbury 60% winning%:

99-00 50 wins

00-01 47 wins

01-02 50 wins

 

NJ with Marbury :

Yr1 16 wins (.320 record)

Yr2 31 wins

Yr3 26 wins

NJ after Marbury :

Yr1 52 wins

Yr2 49 wins

Yr3 47 wins

 

Phoenix with Marbury:

Yr 1 36 wins

Yr 2 44 wins

Yr 3 29 wins

Phoenix after Marbury:

Yr1 62 wins

Yr2 54 wins

Yr3 61 wins

 

This is his career before NYK.

He was playing well in those years. Those win/losses were not all of his doing.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

He was playing well in those years. Those win/losses were not all of his doing.

He put up good numbers those years.  I never liked the way he played.  So I'll agree that a team's record is more than one player for sure, but I think he spent a career of putting up empty numbers and never doing the things that could have really improved his teams.

It was always selfish play to the team's detriment.  

I don't think it is a coincidence that his teams were markedly better after they got rid of him and didn't have one guy dominating the ball like he did.  That "dump Marbury and get better" phenomenon repeated everywhere he played.  Even NY went from 23 his last season to 32 wins after he left and that team was a dumpster fire with Chris Duhon leading the team in minutes.

[lethalweapon3]

"Don't say we never do anything for you, Hawks fans!"

~refz

[macdaddy]

8 minutes ago, lethalweapon3 said:

"Don't say we never do anything for you, Hawks fans!"

~refz

The non-call on Thabo i think was a good one.   I think Westbrook initiated that contact and while i could see a foul call there in some cases, at the end of the game that's a pretty iffy call to make on a guy barreling through a double team.

Baze fouling is pretty obvious and seemed like the ref was in poor position.   Why we're even letting Russ catch the ball in this instance i have no idea.   

But Hawks are still way in the hole in terms of getting some breaks.   I'll take it.   There again, Baze, what the hell?

[rd79]

4 hours ago, lethalweapon3 said:

It was kinda like Bud talking 'bout how he'll keep an eye on Baze's minutes...

...then watching him on the floor for a team-high 40 minutes in his first game as a returning starter.

~lw3

IMO Bazemore played more minutes than planned because Delaney hadn't a good one and so Baze got some minutes at the 1 when Dennis sat out some minutes after he was floored by ... Sabonis(?)