Homecourt Draft Discussion

[KB21]

10 minutes ago, thecampster said:

No, I just want to start with Trae Young.  He is an eyes up point guard. IMHO, that is the best way to build a team.  You get an eyes up point guard, 2 deadly shooters, 2 elite crashers and play defense before a team starts it set.  We have Collins as a crasher and Prince is developing as that shooter. I'd like Young, add a sniper SG and an athletic big who can crash as well as step out.  But you don't see an offensive talent like Trae Young but maybe once every 5 years.  You take him.

I like Trae Young, but he's an absolute fuster cluck when it comes to defense.  Really, he might be the only player that goes in the top 10 who is a worse defender than Marvin Bagley.

The best way to make a quick turnaround and get out of this stupid tank (outside of bringing in legitimate veterans) is to build up a strong defensive team.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Michigan State gave up 86 points per 100 possessions when JJJ is on the floor; 98 points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.  His defensive impact is clearly overstated.  

21 MPG

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

I like Trae Young, but he's an absolute fuster cluck when it comes to defense.  Really, he might be the only player that goes in the top 10 who is a worse defender than Marvin Bagley.

The best way to make a quick turnaround and get out of this stupid tank (outside of bringing in legitimate veterans) is to build up a strong defensive team.

Good news is Young is 19 and defense can be improved. What I like is his ability to pressure the other team by avoiding scoring droughts.  Teams don't go on 15-0 runs with Young on the floor. You don't go 8 straight possessions without scoring.

[thecampster]

The most impressive thing to me about Young is his ability to drive, hesitate, get the defender on his back on draw the shooting foul.  Dennis and his ilk almost never do this. If you miss, its a wasted possession. But get the defender on your back and at least you're shooting 2.  Limiting wasted possessions = solid defense.  The best defense is limiting fast breaks.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Good news is Young is 19 and defense can be improved. What I like is his ability to pressure the other team by avoiding scoring droughts.  Teams don't go on 15-0 runs with Young on the floor. You don't go 8 straight possessions without scoring.

When have you ever seen anyone as bad as Young and Bagley are on defense actually become good defenders in the NBA?

I'd be on board with taking Young in this draft, as I do feel you will maximize John Collins in particular by getting a point guard with his passing capabilities.  However, this team will challenge to be the worst defensive team of all time with Young, Prince, and Collins playing big roles.  

[nathan2331]

Michigan State gave up 86 points per 100 possessions when JJJ is on the floor; 98 points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.  His defensive impact is clearly overstated.  

Ayton had the second highest defensive rating on his team, but as one of his biggest fans I'm not going to say he's an amazing defender. JJJ is better than Bagley, but he's not that amazing. Aside from fouls, why was JJJ on the bench at the end of some of MSU's bench if he's so good?

[thecampster]

Just now, KB21 said:

When have you ever seen anyone as bad as Young and Bagley are on defense actually become good defenders in the NBA?

I'd be on board with taking Young in this draft, as I do feel you will maximize John Collins in particular by getting a point guard with his passing capabilities.  However, this team will challenge to be the worst defensive team of all time with Young, Prince, and Collins playing big roles.  

Its a work in progress man. The second we went tank, lumps were to be had. I'll take a year or two of bad defense now, rather than building with fear.  I'm on the 3 year build mode now (sorry I just threw up a bit that I'm now going there...one sec....bleh oh that tastes horrible...Listerine....gargle...take a drink). Okay I'm back. 3 year build mode. I don't see a talent like Young popping up every year. But defensive bigs can be signed, shooters traded for.  See these old scouting reports.

 

Steve Nash (Phil Bedard nailed it!)

One of the greatest players ever to emerge from the ranks of Candian high school ranks, Nash has been the starting PG for the Candian National Senior team the past two years. Nash, a gifted athlete who emigrated to Victoria, B.C. as a youngster from South Africa, also starred as a soccer player on the B.C. provincial team as a youth. His brother Martin is a star striker on the Canadian National U-23 soccer team. He first gained national recognition as a freshman at Santa Clara, the only Division I school to recruit him, when his clutch free throws at the end of regulation helped knock of #2 seed Arizona in the NCAA tournament.

Nash is a natural point guard who can distribute the ball effectively and hit the long-range jumper. He uses deceptive quickness and a superior understanding of the game to his advantage. Like all of the great point guards, Nash has uncanny court vision and a sixth sense for the game. He may be the best true point guard in the draft.

Steve's biggest weakness is his man-to-man defense. His average foot speed makes him an easy target for small, quick point guards to blow by. His lack of physical strength does not bode well for handling the bigger, stronger point guards in the NBA in the post.

Steve Nash (report #2 by Russ Smith)

Strengths: Nash is the epitome of a gym rat, good shooter, can dribble the ball and is an excellent passer. Smart and very competitive, knows his limitations and uses what he has. Improved every year at Santa Clara.

Weaknesses: Not slow but not quick, improving but still a poor defender, had trouble getting his own shot against quality opponents. Played in Canada and thus is still adjusting to the level of play in the US. Sometimes Nash forgets what's a good shot and what's not.

Comments: Another kid you have to like, late first rounder who could move up, the comparisons to Stockton are skin deep, nowhere near as quick. Has to improve his defense, played a lot of zone in college which could hurt him in the NBA.

identical scouting...better numbers from Young

 

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

18 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Michigan State gave up 86 points per 100 possessions when JJJ is on the floor; 98 points per 100 possessions when he's off the floor.  His defensive impact is clearly overstated.  

 

Ayton had the second highest defensive rating on his team, but as one of his biggest fans I'm not going to say he's an amazing defender. JJJ is better than Bagley, but he's not that amazing. Aside from fouls, why was JJJ on the bench at the end of some of MSU's bench if he's so good?

This is a falsehood that has been completely overstated on here based on a 2 game sample as opposed to his entire season in totality.  

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Its a work in progress man. The second we went tank, lumps were to be had. I'll take a year or two of bad defense now, rather than building with fear.  I'm on the 3 year build mode now (sorry I just threw up a bit that I'm now going there...one sec....bleh oh that tastes horrible...Listerine....gargle...take a drink). Okay I'm back. 3 year build mode. I don't see a talent like Young popping up every year. But defensive bigs can be signed, shooters traded for.  See these old scouting reports.

 

Steve Nash (Phil Bedard nailed it!)

One of the greatest players ever to emerge from the ranks of Candian high school ranks, Nash has been the starting PG for the Candian National Senior team the past two years. Nash, a gifted athlete who emigrated to Victoria, B.C. as a youngster from South Africa, also starred as a soccer player on the B.C. provincial team as a youth. His brother Martin is a star striker on the Canadian National U-23 soccer team. He first gained national recognition as a freshman at Santa Clara, the only Division I school to recruit him, when his clutch free throws at the end of regulation helped knock of #2 seed Arizona in the NCAA tournament.

Nash is a natural point guard who can distribute the ball effectively and hit the long-range jumper. He uses deceptive quickness and a superior understanding of the game to his advantage. Like all of the great point guards, Nash has uncanny court vision and a sixth sense for the game. He may be the best true point guard in the draft.

Steve's biggest weakness is his man-to-man defense. His average foot speed makes him an easy target for small, quick point guards to blow by. His lack of physical strength does not bode well for handling the bigger, stronger point guards in the NBA in the post.

Steve Nash (report #2 by Russ Smith)

Strengths: Nash is the epitome of a gym rat, good shooter, can dribble the ball and is an excellent passer. Smart and very competitive, knows his limitations and uses what he has. Improved every year at Santa Clara.

Weaknesses: Not slow but not quick, improving but still a poor defender, had trouble getting his own shot against quality opponents. Played in Canada and thus is still adjusting to the level of play in the US. Sometimes Nash forgets what's a good shot and what's not.

Comments: Another kid you have to like, late first rounder who could move up, the comparisons to Stockton are skin deep, nowhere near as quick. Has to improve his defense, played a lot of zone in college which could hurt him in the NBA.

identical scouting...better numbers from Young

 

You have made a much better case for Trae Young than anyone else has made for Marvin Bagley or Mo Bamba.  I disagree that it is easy to sign a big who can be the foundation of your defense.  I would still take Jackson over Young but Young is solidly my #3 guy behind only Doncic and Jackson.  

[kg01]

Can we just sign Trey Burke for all you Trae Young fans instead of wasting a lotto pick on him?

[Buzzard]

10 minutes ago, thecampster said:

You aren't wrong about Jackson being a solid pick. But power forwards are a dime a dozen in the NBA.  Think about Millsap. He was a bench player in Utah, we brought him here and he became an all-star. There is a bevy of talent at that position in the NBA and that is not a pick that wins.  Think of the impact Butler had in Minny this year.  They already had an elite big but so what. Every team has one.  But a team with an elite PG/SG/SF is an immediate playoff team. 50% of the time, they will blow their opponent in the NBA out.  PG/SG especially because of durability, speed issues as the players age.   Consider Jeff Teague.  His skill set was built on speed because he wasn't an eyes up type of point guard.  He is now average to below average and is not quite 30 years old.  There are plenty of fast PGs out there, but skilled is a different thing. Most come into the league fast and have to be taught body control and shooting.  Young already has those 2 things down.

 

Offensive minded forwards are not a dime a dozen I sorted on rebounds and looked for 20 points a game and 8 rebounds. Aldridge, Bron, Giannis, ( AD and KAT if you want to give them Forward ). That is it.

The best player on the planet wanted and got Chris Bosh and Kevin Love. He wanted them not because they were great defensive forwards; he wanted them because they provided a very unique advantage over most any team they faced. Even if you use the qualifier all players with 20 and 8, there are only 7 in the NBA. If you use the qualifier 18 and 8, there are only 8 players in the NBA.

I am not going to tell you a great PG is a dime a dozen; but don't tell me 18 and 8 or better is either. 18 and 8 may not guarantee a championship ( what one player really does ); but you will have a big advantage in plus minus at that position against more than close to 75% of the league.

[Flight]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Can we just sign Trey Burke for all you Trae Young fans instead of wasting a lotto pick on him?

That’s like saying to appease fans that want Patrick Ewing, we should sign Neil Patrick Harris. 

[NBASupes]

29 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This is a falsehood that has been completely overstated on here based on a 2 game sample as opposed to his entire season in totality.  

How is it a falsehood?

[kg01]

23 minutes ago, Flight said:

That’s like saying to appease fans that want Patrick Ewing, we should sign Neil Patrick Harris. 

Nah, it's like saying Trae Young is overrated to the point where I'd prefer we sign the player who's destiny I expect him to mimic. 

Similar names was just a coincidence.

That said, I bet NPH could get buckets in the post.

[KB21]

LOL at the idea that Trae Young is overrated but Marvin Bagley is rated properly/underrated.  

There are three players in this draft that would help the Hawks maximize what they have in John Collins and Taurean Prince: Luka Doncic, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Trae Young.  Doncic and Young would maximize those two guy getting them easy shots with their accurate passing.  Jackson does so by being a defensive anchor and spacing the floor on offense with his perimeter shooting.  

The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea of getting Trae Young and Kevin Huerter at 3 and 19.  

[DBac]

JJJ won big 10 defensive player of the year and is backed by every defensive metric as well as the eye test. I don't know why yall are trying to downplay his defense.

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, DBac said:

JJJ won big 10 defensive player of the year and is backed by every defensive metric as well as the eye test. I don't know why yall are trying to downplay his defense.

He also won Big 10 Freshman of the year.

[Peoriabird]

34 minutes ago, DBac said:

JJJ won big 10 defensive player of the year and is backed by every defensive metric as well as the eye test. I don't know why yall are trying to downplay his defense.

Big 10 Defensive player of the year 2016-17

Reggie Lynch...Who?

 

[KB21]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

The most impressive thing to me about Young is his ability to drive, hesitate, get the defender on his back on draw the shooting foul.  Dennis and his ilk almost never do this. If you miss, its a wasted possession. But get the defender on your back and at least you're shooting 2.  Limiting wasted possessions = solid defense.  The best defense is limiting fast breaks.

I think another thing that needs to be looked at (but probably will not be) is the available talent next year as well.  Contrary to popular opinion, you can't just accumulate talent and expect to win.  That talent has to actually fit together.  The Hawks will be drafting in the top 5 (likely top 3 again) net year, so the player they take this year needs to fit not only with Collins and Prince, but also with whoever you get next year.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

43 minutes ago, KB21 said:

LOL at the idea that Trae Young is overrated but Marvin Bagley is rated properly/underrated.  

There are three players in this draft that would help the Hawks maximize what they have in John Collins and Taurean Prince: Luka Doncic, Jaren Jackson Jr, and Trae Young.  Doncic and Young would maximize those two guy getting them easy shots with their accurate passing.  Jackson does so by being a defensive anchor and spacing the floor on offense with his perimeter shooting.  

The more I think about it, the more I really like the idea of getting Trae Young and Kevin Huerter at 3 and 19.  

I do agree with this statement.  It's just that if you add Jackson with Prince and Collins, you need a Bradley Beal type scorer at the 2, or a Damian Lillard type scorer at the 1.  You can't throw out Kent Bazemore and Dennis Schröder with JJJ, and expect to be OK.

When it comes to Trae Young, he's the guy that could be a complete superstar ( if all of his offensive skills translate to the next level ) . . or a complete bust ( if he's not only horrible on defense, but can't get good looks because of his size and lack of toughness ).

I was watching this game live when it happened.  The shooting and the passing is just ridiculous.