News and Notes: Updated between Games

[Spud2nique]

21 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I commend you for continuing this discussion.  It stopped making sense to me long ago.

Just ask them why they're clamoring for us to follow in the footsteps of every failed organization in the league.  None of them will answer that question .... for some reason.

I scroll at this point. I know reading is fundamental but sometimes it ain’t worth it.  

[AHF]

I see both sides of this to some degree.

Agree with KG that you can't have a revolving turnstile at the coaching or GM positions and be a successful franchise.  Given that I think LP has had nothing but lottery rosters, I would not make a change right now.

On evaluating LP, it is a mixed bag.  He hasn't proven to me that he is the long-term guy.  The quality of our roster makes this really tough to evaluate particularly when combined with the suspension / injury situation.  Does he get credit for running an offense that generated league leading numbers of quality shots or does he get bashed for having the team shoot high volumes of 3's (relative to other teams in the league, not historical norms from other eras) when we were so poor at shooting them?  

I think the excuses will be gone next year and he will need to produce a competitive team that aspires to actually make the playoffs.  It will be sink or swim for him.

[macdaddy]

All i can say is it's going to get real old if we have to argue this same issue for 18 months.  And when i say real old i mean me becoming mentally unstable old.   Maybe i need a new interest.  

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I see both sides of this to some degree.

Agree with KG that you can't have a revolving turnstile at the coaching or GM positions and be a successful franchise.  Given that I think LP has had nothing but lottery rosters, I would not make a change right now.

On evaluating LP, it is a mixed bag.  He hasn't proven to me that he is the long-term guy.  The quality of our roster makes this really tough to evaluate particularly when combined with the suspension / injury situation.  Does he get credit for running an offense that generated league leading numbers of quality shots or does he get bashed for having the team shoot high volumes of 3's (relative to other teams in the league, not historical norms from other eras) when we were so poor at shooting them?  

I think the excuses will be gone next year and he will need to produce a competitive team that aspires to actually make the playoffs.  It will be sink or swim for him.

And honestly, i don't think any of us who think retaining LP now is the right decision would disagree with this.   I have huge questions about him as a long term coach too but i definitely don't think we were eeking many more wins out of this roster with better coaching.

My question marks with LP is whether he can keep the team.   We've seen and heard rumors of issues and it's not just with Trae.   That's a big problem.  And one things for sure, if he loses Trae, he's gone.   No coach has ever won the battle against the star player.  But LP is no dummy.  He knows that.  Boy he's made some boneheaded comments though.

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

All i can say is it's going to get real old if we have to argue this same issue for 18 months.  And when i say real old i mean me becoming mentally unstable old.   Maybe i need a new interest.  

Not laughing at you guy, am laughing with you.

[Buzzard]

13 hours ago, macdaddy said:

These are your examples?  Sometimes i think everyone is just bored.  Not a single one of these guys even played very much and they certainly weren't jacking 3s at an alarming rate.  I can't believe your argument is that LP sucks because he let Bruno shoot 37 3s on the season. 

So this is what i'm hearing:

- Winning WAS our primary objective for the season as evidenced by our acquisition of Crabbe and Parker

- If we wanted to win we should have designed an offense that played to the strengths of Bruno, Bembry, Parker etc. rather than Trae, Heurter, Cam, Hunter, Collins?

 

 

You don't pay attention to the games and you certainly do not pay attention to numbers. Those 6 players took 396 threes in 67 games. That is almost 6 ( 5.91 ) threes a game from players who are shooting combined around .250 from three. That is playing stupid basketball in anyone's world.

LP needs to adapt to his personnel but instead he tries to make the role players be something they are not. His offense, when it comes to the bench, is exactly like Josh Smith and Woody on steroids. End of story.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2020.html

Edited April 1, 2020 by Buzzard

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, Buzzard said:

You don't pay attention to the games and you certainly do not pay attention to numbers. Those 6 players took 396 threes in 67 games. That is almost 6 ( 5.91 ) threes a game from players who are shooting combined around .250 from three. That is playing stupid basketball in anyone's world.

LP needs to adapt to his personnel but instead he tries to make the role players be something they are not. His offense, when it comes to the bench, is exactly like Josh Smith and Woody on steroids. End of story.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2020.html

I think the argument that even if Pierce is the worst coach in the league  and it appears that he is, the posters on this board would rather have the worst coach in the league coaching this young team vs a coaching change even if it meant finding the best coach in the league. They think that the continuity is just that important and the players themselves will somehow figure it out.  This is my guess at least.

[JTB]

I think a lot of this arguing can be saved for next season when it actually matters.
I agree with both sides of the argument but let me put my two loonnngg cents in....

Traes emergence steers Schlenk to take a different route:

Schlenk did admit to dropping the ball on the bench unit he assembled and starting center as @macdaddy mentioned a few pages back but he wouldn’t have admitted to any of this had trae not had a breakout season individually. Traes season changed the whole rebuild process and sped things up! That is just a fact and well if you don’t like rebuilds you need to thank Mr. Young for going out there and balling like a damn superstar forcing Schlenk to tank no more purposefully moving forward (more on that going forward)

LPs Offensive style vs Schlenks initial 2020 offseason plan

 I do agree with  @Buzzard and others that LP coaching style doesn’t fit the talents of the team overall with all the 3pt shooting that takes place on the court  and LP does deserve blame for not adjusting accordingly with the talents he was given .... but if I’m being brutally & completely  honest (and you all aren’t going to like reading this) but the truth is Schlenk was going after a top 5 lottery pick for 2020 offseason  people and that was the decision even before he made any signings in 2019 off season....hell that was decision at the 2019 draft night to tank again in the upcoming 2020 season so we could have another top 5 pick...therefore when he gave LP these players in 2019 off season  he knew they weren’t going to fit LPs offensive scheme outside of Crabbe anyways but that was OK cause Schlenks plan was another high lottery draft pick for this 2020 offseason and he was going to do whatever it took to position the team to stay to that plan .....I’m not trying to take up for LP as it’s clear as day that the scheme he runs does not fit this current roster overall  but I just don’t believe Schlenk or anyone in the front office cared about anything over another lottery pick! ....sure LP could have adjusted regardless but that’s not what the plan was.
 

BUT A NEW BUSINESS DECISION HAD TO BE MADE:

A very valid point being missed that you guys have to understand is that the mindset and direction of the franchise completely changed AGAIN thanks to Trae Young solidifying himself as the franchise cornerstone ....and that was official I’d say in early January. Schlenk and this staff did not know trae was going to be a superstar in year 2. You have to remember this part because up until then the front office didn’t care what scheme was on the floor...it was just get through the season and lose, but be as entertaining as possible...sadly Schlenk actually said this in so many words.
 

HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE FOR 2020:

now let’s look forward a bit ....when LP took this job I’m  sure he told Schlenk in his interview how he was going to coach this team and that was with a modern style 3pt shooting offense. LP is not responsible for who he ends up with so that’s why we haven’t seen him held accountable for how he’s coaching this team publicly. Schlenk will get him players who fits LP scheme this summer. There will definitely be more 3pt shooters signed no doubt ...AND next season with a roster that’s fits LPs offensive scheme , if no improvement THEN you can hold LPs feet to the fire!

 

Being mad about this season and how LP did things is a complete waste of your time. It doesn’t matter how right you are about LPs scheme....the fact of the matter is that next season is LPs actual year to swim or sink and Schlenk is going to make sure the roster is not the reason he sinks.

[macdaddy]

10 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Those 6 players took 396 threes in 67 games. That is almost 6 ( 5.91 ) threes a game from players who are shooting combined around .250 from three.

This is really. wrong. math.

That aside.  These are for the most part the scrubs of the team and guys who played part of the year being cited as examples of bad coaching.   There are plenty of better examples of bad coaching on LPs part.  This was is the biggest stretch i've seen.  

[Peoriabird]

8 hours ago, JTB said:

HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE FOR 2020:

 

now let’s look forward a bit ....when LP took this job I’m  sure he told Schlenk in his interview how he was going to coach this team and that was with a modern style 3pt shooting offense. LP is not responsible for who he ends up with so that’s why we haven’t seen him held accountable for how he’s coaching this team publicly. Schlenk will get him players who fits LP scheme this summer. There will definitely be more 3pt shooters signed no doubt ...AND next season with a roster that’s fits LPs offensive scheme , if no improvement THEN you can hold LPs feet to the fire!

 

Being mad about this season and how LP did things is a complete waste of your time. It doesn’t matter how right you are about LPs scheme....the fact of the matter is that next season is LPs actual year to swim or sink and Schlenk is going to make sure the roster is not the reason he sinks.

Its not just the scheme or the role players...Trae Young himself already has some very bad habits...Leads the league in turnovers, bad off the ball, doesn't try on defense at times and plays way too much hero ball to name a few.  The scheme and its focus is dumb and I showed a stat that nullifies this obsession with 3 point shooting in general.  Based on the numbers, the focus should be rebounding not shooting so this small ball BS should stop immediately.  Meaning that guys like Vince Cater should not have had a role in the rotation especially since he could do neither.  And don't get me started on the lack of development of John Collins on both ends

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Its not just the scheme or the role players...Trae Young himself already has some very bad habits...Leads the league in turnovers, bad off the ball, doesn't try on defense at times and plays way too much hero ball to name a few.  The scheme and its focus is dumb and I showed a stat that nullifies this obsession with 3 point shooting in general.  Based on the numbers, the focus should be rebounding not shooting so this small ball BS should stop immediately.  Meaning that guys like Vince Cater should not have had a role in the rotation especially since he could do neither.

I mean who were we supposed to play?  

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I mean who were we supposed to play?  

Like I said, Trae Young has flaws that go unaddressed for starters and so do the rest of the so called core.  Bad coaches are bad for good-great players.  For example, Bruno was top 15 in the nation in rebounding last year but you wouldn't be able to tell because of the way he was being coached...Use the guys and help them perfect their craft!

[macdaddy]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Like I said, Trae Young has flaws that go unaddressed for starters and so do the rest of the so called core.  Bad coaches are bad for good-great players.  For example, Bruno was top 15 in the nation in rebounding last year but you would be able to tell because of the way he was being coached...Use the guys and help them perfect their craft!

For me the bottom line is there were lack of quality options available.   I don't think that's an opinion that many disagree with.   It seems like some of the same people who have issues with Cam and Hunter being allowed to make a bunch of mistakes in an nba game somehow think Bruno would have played like a solid vet if given the chance.   

[Peoriabird]

31 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

For me the bottom line is there were lack of quality options available.   I don't think that's an opinion that many disagree with.   It seems like some of the same people who have issues with Cam and Hunter being allowed to make a bunch of mistakes in an nba game somehow think Bruno would have played like a solid vet if given the chance.   

You are still hung up on results...What I'm talking about is player growth.  There wasn't much...I.E. Huerter still doesn't get to the free throw line, Trae still has tons of flaws like no off the ball movement,  John should be a go to option by now not just a rim runner.  The defense as a whole should be better with better effort.  We should rebound the ball and we don't because of LP's obsession with small ball.  Why run 2 point guards if Trae can't play off the ball and Jeff/Goodwin can't shoot etc.  The list goes n and on and for y'all to say that this doesn't matter because the roster was bad is disingenuous.

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

This is really. wrong. math.

That aside.  These are for the most part the scrubs of the team and guys who played part of the year being cited as examples of bad coaching.   There are plenty of better examples of bad coaching on LPs part.  This was is the biggest stretch i've seen.  

It is not wrong math. It is even more appalling that they took that many threes if you take into account how many minutes they played. Which is my point. This take that the players need to fit LP's system is a pass being given for horrible coaching and utilization of his bench.

This take that they are scrubs and did not play much is BS.

Bembry 915 minutes played

Parker 837 minutes played

Len 745 minutes played

Fernando 713 minutes played

Goodwin 430 minutes played

Dedmon 233 minutes played

What should be shocking to everyone is Bembry has taken 65 threes in only 43 games; while shooting .231 from three. Give me a f***ing break already.

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Buzzard

[macdaddy]

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You are still hung up on results...What I'm talking about is player growth.  There wasn't much...I.E. Huerter still doesn't get to the free throw line, Trae still has tons of flaws like no off the ball movement,  John should be a go to option by now not just a rim runner.  The defense as a whole should be better with better effort.  We should rebound the ball and we don't because of LP's obsession with small ball.  Why run 2 point guards if Trae can't play off the ball and Jeff/Goodwin can't shoot etc.  The list goes n and on and for y'all to say that this doesn't matter because the roster was bad is disingenuous.

I think i'm getting confused with who and what argument we're talking about.

To just address this, I don't see how all or even most of the blame here is on LP.  The lack of energy / effort I will definitely put on him.  Trae still having 'a ton of flaws' in his second year when he went from a supposed bust to an all star starter seems a curious argument against LP.   Collins putting up offensive numbers that no one in the history of the nba has done also seems very suspect as an argument that LP didn't use him enough.  

As far as the others, i think our collective (and i'm guilty) expectation of Heurter maybe too high.  And Trae is playing off the ball to learn how to play off the ball.  It's something he's never done in his whole life and he's supposed to be immediately good at it on an nba level?   But LP is doing it because of his numbers hitting 3s from that position are great.  

 

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I mean who were we supposed to play?  

Its not who you play, its how you play them. Clint Capela has not taken a three in over 5 seasons in Houston. The most prolific three point shooting team in the NBA has a coach who is smart enough to not let bad shooters jack threes.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Buzzard

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

It is not wrong math. It is even more appalling that they took that many threes if you take into account how many minutes they played. Which is my point. This take that the players need to fit LP's system is a pass being given for horrible coaching and utilization of his bench.

This take that they are scrubs and did not play much is BS.

Bembry 915 minutes played

Parker 837 minutes played

Len 745 minutes played

Fernando 713 minutes played

Goodwin 430 minutes played

Dedmon 233 minutes played

What should be shocking to everyone is Bembry has taken 65 threes in only 43 games; while shooting .231 from three. Give me a f***ing break already.

 

If Len goes 1 for 5 from 3 in one game and Dedmon goes 1 for 5 from 3 in another game you can't say:  "these guys are taking collectively 10 3s a game and shooting 20%"

[Buzzard]

7 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

If Len goes 1 for 5 from 3 in one game and Dedmon goes 1 for 5 from 3 in another game you can't say:  "these guys are taking collectively 10 3s a game and shooting 20%"

That is not what I am doing. I am pointing out how many bad shooters we have that have played meaningful minutes and LP just lets them jack up threes when ever they are on the floor. No control what so ever and the saddest part is its by design.

Collectively the shooting percentage is the same. Which is piss poor to say the least.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Buzzard

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Its not who you play its how you play them. Clint Capela has not taken a three in over 5 seasons in Houston. The most prolific three point shooting team in the NBA has a coach who is smart enough to not let bad shooters jack threes.

This is hopeless man...These guys have somehow convinced themselves that this team won't be better off with a better coach for some reason.  And that is the end of the story.  You can throw fact after fact that strongly supports the contrary but the answer will always be nobody could have done a better job coaching this team.  Trae nor John Collins or the rest of the team would have benefited from excellent coaching