Trae’s +/- versus Floor Game-Centric PGs

[HawkItus]

Quote

Points Created Per 36 Minutes Leaders

Player	Points Scored	AST Points	Screen AST Points	Total Points Created
Giannis Antetokounmpo	35.2	16.9	6.3	58.4
Luka Doncic	31.9	24.2	0.2	56.3
LeBron James	26.0	25.8	1.4	53.2
James Harden	35.5	16.6	0.6	52.8
Trae Young	29.9	20.2	0.2	50.4
Nikola Jokic	22.1	16.0	10.7	48.9
Karl-Anthony Towns	28.6	10.1	8.8	47.5
Domantas Sabonis	18.9	10.5	16.8	46.2
Derrick Rose	25.4	19.6	0.5	45.5
Kawhi Leonard	30.3	13.4	1.5	45.3

Four players have emerged this season as clear MVP candidates, even on off nights, and those same four players lead this leaderboard, too. No surprise there. In fifth place is Trae Young, posting historic offensive numbers for a moribund Hawks team that can’t seem to create anything at all without him. (Without Young on the court, Atlanta scores a ghastly 91.5 points per 100 possessions—a dozen points worse than the league-worst Warriors offense.) Then comes a mix of different kinds of players, solid proof that this metric doesn’t simply favor guards, wings, or bigs but rather anyone who can help create points in a medley of ways.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/1/24/21079412/points-creation-giannis-antetokounmpo-luka-doncic-lebron-james

[enrique]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:40 PM, HawkItus said:

I'd like to see the +/- of all our starters against those teams before calling you an idiot.

So after running the numbers here is what I found thanks to Basketball Ref:

• Atlanta +/- for season in games Trae has played is -377.
• Trae's +/- for season is -187
• The differential between Atlanta and Trae is +200 better than the team in those game (that factors out Trae's DNP)

Vs. the teams @benhillboyreferenced here are the stats...

• Atlanta +/- for specified teams is -163 (again factoring out Trae's DNP)
• Trae's +/- for those remaining games is -95
• The differential between Atlanta and Trae is +67 for Trae

 

@HawkItusI hope that is helpful for you...

 

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

This is the part of the OP criticism I don't understand (and honestly i don't understand it.  not just disagreeing).  Trae's only good at creating points for himself and others?  I mean what else is there really on the offensive side of the ball.

[HawkItus]

28 minutes ago, enrique said:

So after running the numbers here is what I found thanks to Basketball Ref:

• Atlanta +/- for season in games Trae has played is -377.
• Trae's +/- for season is -187
• The differential between Atlanta and Trae is +200 better than the team in those game (that factors out Trae's DNP)

Vs. the teams @benhillboyreferenced here are the stats...

• Atlanta +/- for specified teams is -163 (again factoring out Trae's DNP)
• Trae's +/- for those remaining games is -95
• The differential between Atlanta and Trae is +67 for Trae

 

@HawkItusI hope that is helpful for you...

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  @benhillboy

 

[REHawksFan]

45 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

This is the part of the OP criticism I don't understand (and honestly i don't understand it.  not just disagreeing).  Trae's only good at creating points for himself and others?  I mean what else is there really on the offensive side of the ball.

Agreed. It's like the criticism that Trae is just hunting assists. What? I mean is it really a complaint that Trae is looking to get his teammates involved? 

 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Agreed. It's like the criticism that Trae is just hunting assists. What? I mean is it really a complaint that Trae is looking to get his teammates involved? 

 

The only way this can be a negative is in the Stephon Marbury sense where you are just getting your assists by dominating the ball.  When other people don't touch the ball because you are hogging it, it will inflate your assist numbers because a lot of baskets will come directly from your last pass since others don't get the opportunity to move the ball as much.

[capstone21]

He does not need to cut back on the turnovers though ... he is leading the league.

[hawkman]

9 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

He does not need to cut back on the turnovers though ... he is leading the league.

Having him play off the ball more will help that. Playing off the ball and proper defensive technique are the next steps in his development. 

[capstone21]

15 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Having him play off the ball more will help that. Playing off the ball and proper defensive technique are the next steps in his development. 

... or making better decisions 

[enrique]

36 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

He does not need to cut back on the turnovers though ... he is leading the league.

You are absolutely correct, but from a proportionality stat his overall turnover percentage has improved since last year. I know that is a shock, but true. In fact, Trae has improved in more areas of his game (statistically) than any other player in the NBA this year. His percentages have increased and performance increased in every area except block percentage and offensive boards (yet overall rebound% has gone up too) I think. 

Here's the data to prove it...

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/drgAj     

[benhillboy]

3 year, 3 months to the day bump lol.

But yeah, add Derrick White to the long list of Point guards who love sharing the floor with Trae:

Series +/-:

Trae -32

Brogdon +25

Smart +16

White +15

This is a nightmare for Trae to have 3 of these guys on the same team.

Last year’s postseason:

Trae -58

Vincent +28

Lowry +51

My analysis hold up pretty damn sturdily, in my incredibly humble opinion lol.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And you keep comparing him to guys who don't have "superstar" responsibilities.

So when Trae doesn't play like a superstar, the team suffers.  He doesn't have the luxury to just be "good" or even "serviceable".  He has to be great.

With Murray being the only somewhat high level player on the team, Trae has to play at that level every game.  When he doesn't, multiple people have to step up.  Bogi can do it on occasion, but he's not getting enough minutes recently.

If you're gonig to compare him to anybody, compare him to Donovan Mitchell.  Mitchell has superstar responsibilities and has been outstanding this season.  Don't compare him to PGs who are expected to be the 3th and 4th scoring options on a team.

[NBASupes]

39 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And you keep comparing him to guys who don't have "superstar" responsibilities.

So when Trae doesn't play like a superstar, the team suffers.  He doesn't have the luxury to just be "good" or even "serviceable".  He has to be great.

With Murray being the only somewhat high level player on the team, Trae has to play at that level every game.  When he doesn't, multiple people have to step up.  Bogi can do it on occasion, but he's not getting enough minutes recently.

If you're gonig to compare him to anybody, compare him to Donovan Mitchell.  Mitchell has superstar responsibilities and has been outstanding this season.  Don't compare him to PGs who are expected to be the 3th and 4th scoring options on a team.

What you are trying to say in layman's is Trae is an offensive engine and that has a lot of responsibilities. It does and it has value. I agree with that part. But Murray has a lot of responsibilities too. I would say he has more responsibilities than Trae. It seems like you just value the offensive engine value more than others. 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

What you are trying to say in layman's is Trae is an offensive engine and that has a lot of responsibilities. It does and it has value. I agree with that part. But Murray has a lot of responsibilities too. I would say he has more responsibilities than Trae. It seems like you just value the offensive engine value more than others. 

I think North was responding to a comparison between Trae and White, Brogdon and Smart.  Murray's only role in that was noting that he is the #2 option unlike Boston who has Tatum and Brown at least above all their PGs in terms of priority.

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think North was responding to a comparison between Trae and White, Brogdon and Smart.  Murray's only role in that was noting that he is the #2 option unlike Boston who has Tatum and Brown at least above all their PGs in terms of priority.

White and Smart have more responsibilities on possession by possession ball than Tatum and especially Brown. Tatum probably has the most responsibilities of any superstar in this league if we are being honest

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by NBASupes

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

White and Smart have more responsibilities on possession by possession ball than Tatum and especially Brown. Tatum probably has the most responsibilities of any superstar in this league if we are being honest

 

You think White and Smart have more responsibility for Boston's offense than Tatum?

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

You think White and Smart have more responsibility for Boston's offense than Tatum?

Overall responsibility based on what the coaches need them to execute. Tatum has the most offensive responsibility. White is 2nd. Brown 3rd. Smart 4th. Defensively, Smart 1st, White 2nd, Tatum 3rd, Williams or Horford 4th, 5th is Brown

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

. But Murray has a lot of responsibilities too. I would say he has more responsibilities than Trae.

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face... Maybe your face is not straight.

but seriously...

If you're trying to suggest that Murray is a stellar defender... let's stop right there.  Murray hasn't been a stellar defender.   If he had been a stellar defender on the level of Smart (for instance) we would not have any problems.  Unfortunately, Murray's POA defense isn't there yet.   And he's slight.  Yes.. he's 6'4" but he's 190 lbs.   When he gives up 20 lbs to Tatum and damn near 40 lbs to JB.. yeah.. that matters in his POA defense.  

Over the summer, Murray needs to find the Mike Bibby secret sauce... and work on his handle with Jamal Crawford.   I need Murray to get up to at least 205. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

White and Smart have more responsibilities on possession by possession ball than Tatum and especially Brown.

This is supes statement.  Let me sit back and ???? for a second.  This is say anything day for Supes. 

Lets talk about Brown shall we.  You said especially Brown.  Brown has no plays drawn up for him.  I'm not saying this, this is a matter of fact.  He's the master of the off ball game.   An Endpoint... not a starting point in the offense.  At no time does he ever have to create.  Smart Maybe.  White Maybe.  But Brown.. Nope.   

 

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face... Maybe your face is not straight.

but seriously...

If you're trying to suggest that Murray is a stellar defender... let's stop right there.  Murray hasn't been a stellar defender.   If he had been a stellar defender on the level of Smart (for instance) we would not have any problems.  Unfortunately, Murray's POA defense isn't there yet.   And he's slight.  Yes.. he's 6'4" but he's 190 lbs.   When he gives up 20 lbs to Tatum and damn near 40 lbs to JB.. yeah.. that matters in his POA defense.  

Over the summer, Murray needs to find the Mike Bibby secret sauce... and work on his handle with Jamal Crawford.   I need Murray to get up to at least 205. 

Do you even watch the defensive actions we constantly have Murray in? Man, sometimes I really don't want to respond because I don't know if you are seeing actions and possessions clearly