Moderators macdaddy Posted February 28, 2020 Moderators Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 With all due respect, and remember i'm saying with all due respect, there are way too many quizzes on here. I done graduated years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, sturt said: Let me preface what I'm about to say by doing something I never do... i.e., repeat myself. It does indeed come down to how Schlenk assesses Ingram and his potential. Maybe he looks at him and agrees with those who see a young Kevin Durant. Or, maybe he's one of those of the "many" executives the ESPN reporter spoke to who don't actually consider him worth the max, just as some here don't. But do please be consistent and acknowledge, folks, that many of you are arguing against yourselves--on the one hand "he's not that good," and on the other "he's way too good for NOP to not offer him a max." Choose a side and stay there, please, or look foolish. My point has assumed Schlenk considers him an elite player and my premise is that Schlenk does intend to pursue a top tier talent with the cap space he has been so miserly and disciplined in making sure he has... and that common sense says his opportunity for doing so is going to close quickly after having the 2020 and 2021 free agency pools to dive into. Okay, here's what I really want to say... I agree that we need defensive chops. I'm not a Doug Moe disciple. I want to see anyone we add from this point forward to be a defensive asset. Brandon Ingram has been playing out of position for practically all of his minutes for the last two seasons. Go back and look at the 5-man rotations for him in 82games and the percent of minutes spent at each position, and you'll find he's been facing power forwards most all of this season--and he doesn't have the frame for that night after night after night, at least not at this stage of his career. Look at the previous season, and you'll find he was getting almost all of his minutes at shooting guard where, at least he's probably better matched, but still not ideal. I like him as he was drafted to be, a small forward. Put him there and leave him there. I don't think he will merely hold his own there, I think we'll find he's actually capable of making an All-Defensive Team some day. In ATL, that's where he would most likely get most of his minutes, and we would thrive with him there. My biggest concern is his durability, not his defense. Recently, he's been having some knee concerns, evidently. Us Hawk fans have had more than our share of disappointment over the years with quality acquisitions who, once in ATL, barely got onto the court. That, to me, would be the most valid reason for Schlenk to decide to not pursue Ingram. I don't like repeating myself either but I will. I don't think spending that kind of money on a FA who does nor make a huge on/off difference for his 8th seed team is in our best interest. We are a weak rebounding team and we are a weak defensive team, Ingram does not fit in my opinion. John Collins makes a bigger difference in those categories I pointed out. I would expect Ingram to at least be in Collins range and he is not. So don't take this as I am ignoring you data points. Take it as I like mine better. Pass. Edited February 28, 2020 by Buzzard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, macdaddy said: With all due respect, and remember i'm saying with all due respect, there are way too many quizzes on here. I done graduated years ago. hours ago, sturt said: So who is who? Which strengths assessment was Draft Express giving about the one player, and which for the other when they were each preparing to be drafted? And how about weaknesses? Note: One of these is probably the player you're thinking. The other might not be, but he has been getting some love in this thread (... just as he should). Oh, c'monnnnnnn... guessssss.... Okay, here's a hint... one was mentioned by Spud earlier. And of course, the question is more of a statement than it is a question anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, sturt said: Coming back to my computer after lunch, and what?!?... no guesses? There is no comparison between Giannis and Brandon Ingram. NONE!! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Buzzard said: I don't like repeating myself either but I will. I don't think spending that kind of money on a FA who does nor make a huge on/off difference for his 8th seed team is in our best interest. We are a weak rebounding team and we are a weak defensive team, Ingram does not fit in my opinion. John Collins makes a bigger difference in those categories I pointed out. I would expect Ingram to at least be in Collins range and he is not. Pass. So, this is why it's difficult to get a productive conversation going... when I oblige you and make a direct counterpoint to your counterpoint, it's important for you, then, to offer a direct counterpoint to the counterpoint made... as opposed to shifting the discussion to a new somewhat different point, in this case, that the player "doesn't make a huge difference" for his 8th seed team. And then, what Collins has to do with anything, respectfully, you lost me and I have no clue. Collins is a bona fide PF/C. Ingram is a SF who... circling back now to the counterpoint made... has been made to play SF and PF far too much, imo, at least where his defensive results are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, KB21 said: There is no comparison between Giannis and Brandon Ingram. NONE!! Well, no. There actually is. You think I made that stuff up? hehe Not that we should expect the resident self-appointed pontificator of exceptional objectivity to have said any different, of course. *wink* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, sturt said: Well, no. There actually is. You think I made that stuff up? hehe Not that we should expect the resident self-appointed pontificator of exceptional objectivity to have said any different, of course. *wink* The biggest difference between the two is that Giannis is actually a great basketball player, and Brandon Ingram is just an overhyped AAU star that some believe will be good if you give him some more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, KB21 said: The biggest difference between the two is that Giannis is actually a great basketball player, and Brandon Ingram is just an overhyped AAU star that some believe will be good if you give him some more time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzard Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, sturt said: So, this is why it's difficult to get a productive conversation going... when I oblige you and make a direct counterpoint to your counterpoint, it's important for you, then, to offer a direct counterpoint to the counterpoint made... as opposed to shifting the discussion to a new somewhat different point, in this case, that the player "doesn't make a huge difference" for his 8th seed team. And then, what Collins has to do with anything, respectfully, you lost me and I have no clue. Collins is a bona fide PF/C. Ingram is a SF who... circling back now to the counterpoint made... has been made to play SF and PF far too much, imo, at least where his defensive results are concerned. I don't like talking about players for days on end that I don't want for a max. Don't take that personal. If you don't like spinach, do you want to talk about spinach for a few days? Of course not. The Pelican fans will probably go into a riot if he walks for nothing; much like a lot of Hawks fans would for Collins. You don't let your 2nd best player walk for nothing. I think they will sign him for that reason alone. Ingram is a "nice" player but a bad fit for the reasons I mentioned. There is not a lot more for me to say but I will. We are a bad defensive team, a bad rebounding team, and a bad three point shooting team. We can get shooting improvement a hell of a lot cheaper than Ingram; he will not fix anything else in my opinion. You asked for facts, I gave you facts that support my opinion. You are like a bottomless pit with this Ingram debate. Nothing is ever enough. Ingram does not even make the impact Collins does by his on/off numbers in rebounding and the opponents offensive efficiency. On/Off has nothing to do with position; it shows impact when a player is on the court vs off the court. Ingram is not that impactful on his 8th seed team. That and the eye test is all I need to see. Nice player and if you have him, you will probably have to pay him. Good for us we don't have to pay him is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Buzzard said: You asked for facts, I gave you facts that support my opinion. You did. I appreciated that... so much so, that I replied with direct counterpoints. Didn't skip off to some other angles. Just sat right there and spoke to his defense, just as you cited. And it's fine if the topic is now spinach to you. I won't take it as a sign of disrespect if you disengage. That's fine, really. It's not spinach to me because this is the the single solitary one young, pending free agent player considered a threat to summit the top tier that we would seem to have even a 30% shot at signing in July 2020 or July 2021. There are no others in that category that we can hope to attract. (But heck, what am I saying... I like spinach anyhow... Popeye sold me when I was a kid. ) Still, I'll answer this. I suppose your counterpoint is "well I was citing his on/off numbers, and those aren't position specific." Indeed, they are not position specific. Agreed. But/and... we both know this, just like we both know they are not player-specific... on/off numbers are inherently handicapped by the question of who the other 4 players are who are most typically on the court for the most minutes when that player is on the court... and conversely... the same question pertains to the off-court numbers. For them to be as compelling as you seem to want to make them, you'd have to have a roster of just 6 players total. But of course, teams routinely have 8-10 players in their rotation, and each different set is, well, it's own different set... and thus different comparison group... and each set plays a different amount of minutes. It's interesting, but the complexity prevents any rock solid conclusions. The position-specific stats are, to me, more telling, but still nonetheless also impaired because some teams do more switching than others, some teams play more zone than others. And the point remains whether you're looking at on/off or position-specific comparisons... Play Ingram at SF consistently, and have him guarding primarily other SFs... as opposed to PFs in NOP or SGs in LAL... and I believe, based on how often I already see him deflecting passes, getting steals, and blocking shots as-is, he's going to be a plus defender. He's capable. So, that to say, one can have a hunch either way--that he would or wouldn't be a defensive asset if consistently slotted in as the primary SF--but regardless, it is objective to say the jury remains out on that point until we actually have numbers to say one way or the other. Spinach served. Push away from the table if you please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 This is mostly in jest but really....it must suck to be an English Lit. major in a sports driven world. Thank goodness for forums as an outlet. Remember Cliff Notes anyone? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 @Thomas ... Journalism undergrad here. Who knew, right? William F. Buckley devotee. Again. Who knew, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Thomas said: This is mostly in jest but really....it must suck to be an English Lit. major in a sports driven world. Thank goodness for forums as an outlet. Remember Cliff Notes anyone? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Oh, be quiet, Spud. You and your wild, wild romantic dreams of Giannis coming to Atlanta. Really??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 hour ago, sturt said: I have this a like for the gif not anything in the discussion. Ingram isn’t for us. HE NOT FOR US 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 1 minute ago, sturt said: Oh, be quiet, Spud. You and your wild, wild romantic dreams of Giannis coming to Atlanta. Really??? We might not get Giannis but I’m not trying to crash the Hawks hopes and dreams and kill what we’ve created with Ingram I’ll tell ya that right now Wnglish undergrad or Washington Capital fan or lover of white labs whatever broh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, sturt said: @Thomas ... Journalism undergrad here. Who knew, right? William F. Buckley devotee. Again. Who knew, right? Your pretty damn good at it cat so maybe a novel is available under the same pen name? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member sturt Posted February 28, 2020 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 Welcome to that opinion, @Spud2nique. But I can't help but notice you're back in hunch-land. I'm trying to keep the conversation over here in fact-land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, sturt said: @Thomas ... Journalism undergrad here. Who knew, right? William F. Buckley devotee. Again. Who knew, right? I can't be the only one that immediately thought of this clip when you said that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted February 28, 2020 Report Share Posted February 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said: I have this a like for the gif not anything in the discussion. Ingram isn’t for us. HE NOT FOR US Scarface was such really creepy stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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