Coach Bud was never that good of a coach

[RedDawg#8]

40 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Miami has 1 all star and a bunch of undrafted players on their team.  How can they have more talent than the #1 seed with the 2 time MVP?

Paper champs

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I wonder who was bold enough to say this before the series started...Like No One?  And now People are claiming I saw it coming a mile away.  "Milwaukee has no guards therefore I knew they would get swept by Miami" or "Miami Is the more talented team"

Sigh. I wonder what your thoughts before the series started. Were you bold enough to put it out there? I looked, but I couldn't find it.

 

 

[AHF]

46 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I wonder who was bold enough to say this before the series started...Like No One?  And now People are claiming I saw it coming a mile away.  "Milwaukee has no guards therefore I knew they would get swept by Miami" or "Miami Is the more talented team"

I told people to expect upsets in this year’s playoffs.  Almost nothing will surprise me.  Bud can’t escape criticism and shouldn’t but this is not an extension of the season where they were the #1 seed.  That season ended and now we are in the bubble tournament where Milwaukee went 3-5 during the pre-playoff period showing they were no longer the same team that went 53-12 during the pre-break period.
 

Spo is a top tier coach for me.  He is bolstered as well having Pat Riley as the team President.  You know Riley works with him hand in glove which enhances his performance.

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

I told people to expect upsets in this year’s playoffs.  Almost nothing will surprise me.  Bud can’t escape criticism and shouldn’t but this is not an extension of the season where they were the #1 seed.  That season ended and now we are in the bubble tournament where Milwaukee went 3-5 during the pre-playoff period showing they were no longer the same team that went 53-12 during the pre-break period.

Except this happened also last year without the Bubble.  Milwaukee had the NBA MVP and the 1st seed and were heavily favored to make it to the championship. 

Excuse # 2 in 3-2-1

[RedDawg#8]

I actually feel a little sorry for Milwaukee. At least we were swept by Lebron in the playoffs. 
Giannis is supposed to be King of the East now, and they are getting outclassed in every way.

Makes you wonder back in February why Jimmy Butler wasnt on the floor in the ASG but catz like Siakem were. Sure could have used a Jimmy Bucket or 2 to protect that lead huh team Giannis haha

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Except this happened also last year without the Bubble.  Milwaukee had the NBA MVP and the 1st seed and were heavily favored to make it to the championship. 

Excuse # 2 in 3-2-1

Lmao.  Weak.  
 

They lost 4-2 to the eventual NBA champions in the ECF.  
 

Getting the #1 seed doesn’t mean you make the finals.  Look at the history of #1 seeds and you’ll find plenty that fail to make the finals.  
 

They weren’t the best team in the East after Toronto traded mid season for Kawhi.  Is that condemnation?  Is that an excuse?

Label it however you want.  It was the reality.  Losing in 6 in the conference finals is not the same or some huge upset.  This was expected to be a close series.

Example:

2019 ECF Predictions

https://ca.nba.com/news/nba-playoffs-2019-toronto-raptors-vs-milwaukee-bucks-series-preview-eastern-conference-finals-picks-and-predictions/hg3dxijgs9mo1or0t00ss2dwv

Micah Adams: Raptors in six

Carlan Gay: Bucks in six

Kyle Irving: Bucks in six

Gilbert McGregor: Raptors in seven

Alex Novick: Bucks in seven

Scott Rafferty: Raptors in seven

[JayBirdHawk]

Lakers/Rockets....anyone else think LAL should start Anthony Davis at Center , LBJ at PF instead of starting McGee?  Houston doesn't need to guard McGee so his size becomes mostly irrelevant to Houston's small ball lineup. He also isn't much of a rebounder/shotblocker/shot alterer to make a difference on that end.

I would start Rondo (I know he was late to the bubble due to hand injury) and let him guard Eric Gordon.

Then match up KCP and Green with Harden and Westbrook.

That leaves LBJ and Davis vs Covington and Tucker.

This is not a series for McGee and Dwight - they don't have enough punch to make a difference.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Lmao.  Weak.  
 

They lost 4-2 to the eventual NBA champions in the ECF.  
 

Getting the #1 seed doesn’t mean you make the finals.  Look at the history of #1 seeds and you’ll find plenty that fail to make the finals.  
 

They weren’t the best team in the East after Toronto traded mid season for Kawhi.  Is that condemnation?  Is that an excuse?

Label it however you want.  It was the reality.  Losing in 6 in the conference finals is not the same or some huge upset.  This was expected to be a close series.

Example:

2019 ECF Predictions

https://ca.nba.com/news/nba-playoffs-2019-toronto-raptors-vs-milwaukee-bucks-series-preview-eastern-conference-finals-picks-and-predictions/hg3dxijgs9mo1or0t00ss2dwv

Micah Adams: Raptors in six

Carlan Gay: Bucks in six

Kyle Irving: Bucks in six

Gilbert McGregor: Raptors in seven

Alex Novick: Bucks in seven

Scott Rafferty: Raptors in seven

You're right...This year proves my point about Bud even more.  I'm pretty sure you can't find any one picking Miami in 4.  All of this nonsense about it was obvious that Miami was going to win because of their superior talent or guard play is just hog wash!  Bud just got out coached once again.  Thank God he is gone although I would take him over LP 24/7 and twice on Sunday.

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You're right...This year proves my point about Bud even more.  I'm pretty sure you can't find any one picking Miami in 4.  All of this nonsense about it was obvious that Miami was going to win because of their superior talent or guard play is just hog wash!  Bud just got out coached once again.  Thank God he is gone although I would take him over LP 24/7 and twice on Sunday.

It isn’t obvious to me that Miami was going to win.  It was obvious that the regular season wasn’t going to be much of a predictor as to the best team.  So having the best record means much less than it normally would.  You are restarting a new season.  In that restart, Milwaukee had a losing record.  They were clearly unlike the team that was winning 5 out of 6 games prior to the break.  
 

Bud is fair game for his inability to adjust, etc. but not fair game to be held as having a team that was a prohibitive favorite to make the NBA finals.  They weren’t that team.  Not sure they were in the regular season but they sure weren’t after the restart.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Bud is fair game for his inability to adjust, etc. but not fair game to be held as having a team that was a prohibitive favorite to make the NBA finals.  They weren’t that team.  Not sure they were in the regular season but they sure weren’t after the restart.

What does he need?  He is according to many of his fans on Hawks squawk one of the 5 best coaches in the league especially when he was in Atlanta while Spo is mediocre.  He is suppose to be a difference maker with his team but yet he isn't.  Anyone can get to the finals with the dream team.  Heck he might even screw that up come to think of it.  LOL!

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

What does he need?  He is according to many of his fans on Hawks squawk one of the 5 best coaches in the league especially when he was in Atlanta while Spo is mediocre.  He is suppose to be a difference maker with his team but yet he isn't.  Anyone can get to the finals with the dream team.  Heck he might even screw that up come to think of it.  LOL!

It is not shocking to me if any of the top 6 teams bounce each other.  That is expected in this format.  Doesn’t mean bad coaching gets excused but there are no prohibitive favorites this year.

Losing to Orlando or Brooklyn would have been an embarrassment.   Otherwise, the rest of the bunch are in the same mixer for me in a COVID bubble tournament.

Coaching might be the difference maker in that context but it isn’t like any coach is working with a stacked deck in the East in this environment, imo.

I do think Bud is an excellent coach but if you look back at my Squawk drafts, Spo is the guy I’ve targeted most years.  He is excellent.

[nathan2331]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Lakers/Rockets....anyone else think LAL should start Anthony Davis at Center , LBJ at PF instead of starting McGee?  Houston doesn't need to guard McGee so his size becomes mostly irrelevant to Houston's small ball lineup. He also isn't much of a rebounder/shotblocker/shot alterer to make a difference on that end.

I would start Rondo (I know he was late to the bubble due to hand injury) and let him guard Eric Gordon.

Then match up KCP and Green with Harden and Westbrook.

That leaves LBJ and Davis vs Covington and Tucker.

This is not a series for McGee and Dwight - they don't have enough punch to make a difference.

You're right that they need to bench McGee and Dwight, and I still don't think it would be enough. The Lakers just don't have the shooting to compete with Houston on their roster. Credit to Houston for defending the paint well, because the Lakers don't have much of an advantsge there like you'd expect.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

You're right that they need to bench McGee and Dwight, and I still don't think it would be enough. The Lakers just don't have the shooting to compete with Houston on their roster. Credit to Houston for defending the paint well, because the Lakers don't have much of an advantsge there like you'd expect.

yeah, they lack shooting and a bench. I'd give Meon Deon the green light and see if he can get hot.  better than Dwight and McGee.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We would have gotten the Philly Jimmy that left for Miami. The Hawks had already decided the rebuild was the route they were taking the previous year by not resigning Milsap, trading Dennis the year they drafted Trae. No use bringing in a guy that would leave. Can you imagine Jimmy the 1st month of Trae struggling?

There was nothing wrong with "Philly Jimmy".  He ended up being the leader for that Philly playoff team over Simmons and Embiid.  And I have no problem with players who play with passion, and who are a little abrasive at times.  That at least shows me that the player cares about winning.

For the Hawks, Jimmy would become the undisputed leader of the team, in order to take the pressure off of Trae.  That is the exact scenario that I illustrated in that Jimmy Butler thread 2 years ago.  He would have to become the leader of the team ( for better or for worse ), instead of putting all of that pressure on a rookie and our 2nd year player. 

If that happened, maybe Trae doesn't struggle one bit in those first 2 months of his rookie season, and really developed into a more efficient player.  Most important, having Jimmy and Jeremy Lin on the team, would enable Trae to take shots more off the ball.

And who knows?  Maybe Jimmy helps a guy like Bembry become a better player.  Maybe Bembry a "homeless Jimmy", at least defensively.

 

So this is lineup in 2018 - 19, if you acquire Jimmy:

• PG - Trae
• G - Butler
• F - Bembry
• F - Collins
• C - Dedmon

 

Bench: 

• Jeremy Lin ( because we still needed a PG ),
• Vince Carter ( because LP would still want that veteran voice )
• Kevin Huerter ( because Travis still probably drafts a shooter )
• Alex Len ( still needed a backup center )
• does he still draft Omari Spellman?  Probably

 

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

The only good thing from that would have come from that trade is we would have traded Baze (though I doubt Minny would want him over Covington at $10 mil vs $18 mil), so we wouldn't have him to trade for Punch face Evan Turner the next year.

So let's look at all the hindsight stuff. We trade Baze and Prince for Butler we win a few more games over the 29 we won but still not make the playoffs. We are now ahead of Dallas in the win column, they get to keep their pick, so we don't draft Cam Reddish and are picking #18 or later this year. 

 

 

You say that team doesn't make the playoffs?  I agree.  We probably get close though.  And I think Trae and Collins playing with a player like Butler, improves them all around as players, than playing with non-leaders like Baze and Pierce . . . and then having to be the young leaders for Cam and Deandre Hunter.

I hate to tell you and all Hawks fans this JayBird, but . . . . Butler > Reddish + Hunter.    And that may be the case for at least the next 2 - 3 years.   The question is . . . how long will that be the case? 

Our future partially depends on at least one of these guys becoming good enough to be at least a borderline All-Star, to compliment Trae and John.  What we would know, is that Butler could compliment Trae and John instantly, and put us on a faster track to getting back to playoff level, and beyond, if they really developed chemistry.  Essentially, a Trae - Butler - Collins trio gives us one of the best 3 man combos in the NBA.

 

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We end up with a possibly lower that #8 pick since we've won a few more games with Butler. We've traded Prince so we can't make the BKN deal to get the #17 last year to use to trade up to get Hunter, but we also don't have #8, we also don't have #17 this year to trade for Capela. We do like it was rumored that Philly did and offered Jimmy a max to not visit any other teams during FAcy but he visits Miami anyway and signs with them. 

So we are left with Trae, whoever we selected last year not named Hunter or Reddish and Collins. Did I get all the hindsights that could happen? Probably not.

 

So let's talk about the 2019 Draft.   We have no high lottery pick and no extra pick from Dallas because of a Jimmy trade.   All we'd have is say, the #12 pick and our two 2nd round picks.

Who would be available?

• Tyler Herro ( all-rookie )
• Brandon Clarke ( all-rookie )
• Grant Williams ( mini Al Horford )
• Kevin Porter Jr ( the Cleveland version . . . who lit us up one game last season )
• Bruno Fernando ( still on the board  )
• Bol Bol ( free falling through the draft and still on the board )
• Eric Paschall ( all-rookie )

 

Considering that this era of the NBA values shooting, and the fact that Omari and Huerter struggled to stay healthy in their rookie years, maybe the 2 selections in 2019 are Tyler Herro Bruno Fernando and Bol Bol ( with those last 2 guys falling into the 2nd round, and right into our hands ).

Now it's time to court Jimmy, and convince him we have 2 very good young players to team him with, while he becomes the face of the franchise ( at least for a year or two ) and the opportunity for he and Trae to become the best backcourt in the East for the next 4 years.  Vince is still here, as the steady voice in the locker room that Jimmy AND Trae would respect.  If he and the Hawks came to terms, you now have your building block for the next 4 years.

 

Potential new team in 2019 - 20:

• Trae
• Huerter
• Butler
• Collins
• Len

 

Bench: 

• Evan Turner ( sorry AHF, Travis still probably makes that move )
• Tyler Herro  
• Vince Carter
• De'Andre Bembry
• Bruno Fernando
• Bol Bol ( probably goes to G-League to rehab, then brought up later in the year )
• Brandon Goodwin ( G-League, then call-up )

 

That team makes the playoffs as a DANGEROUS #7 or #8 seed ( even with Collins missing time ), because I think the Trae - Butler - Collins trio would be really good.

 

"Closing Lineup"

Trae - Huerter - Herro - Butler - Collins

That's a playmaking/scoring PG - 2 shooters - a vet/shotmaking/defending wing that can guard 4 positions - and one of the most athletic bigs in the league.   I'll take that all day.

 

If Butler didn't sign, and left the Hawks hanging, you either plug in Bembry or Herro at one of the wing spots, and go from there.   A Trae - Huerter - Herro trio at the guard would be very interesting, and increase our shooting dramatically.  So I'd probably start Herro.  Defensively, we're a nightmare, but we're also a better shooting team.

• Trae
• Huerter
• Herro
• Collins
• Len

 

But let's be honest folks.  If that was the team without Butler, we're really in no different position with that, than we are now.  The X-factor would be if Cam or Hunter have the ability to become a star player, as opposed to Huerter or Herro.

The crazy thing is this. 

If you were to poll everyone in the league on which duo of players would be the best in 3 years, I would bet that most in the NBA would take Herro and Huerter over Cam and Hunter, because Huerter and Herro are much better shooters.  Only Hawks fans would say different, partially because we HAVE TO.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Butler's "crime" in Philly, is that he felt the team and the organization lacked "structure"

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-jimmy-butler-reveals-real-reason-behind-his-departure-from-76ers/#:~:text=Jimmy Butler left the Philadelphia,story on JJ Redick's podcast.

 

Turns out, he was right on the money.  Otherwise, the Sixers ownership wouldn't have fired Brett Brown.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Butler's "crime" in Philly, is that he felt the team and the organization lacked "structure"

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-jimmy-butler-reveals-real-reason-behind-his-departure-from-76ers/#:~:text=Jimmy Butler left the Philadelphia,story on JJ Redick's podcast.

 

Turns out, he was right on the money.  Otherwise, the Sixers ownership wouldn't have fired Brett Brown.

 

Also, Butler talked about people "controlling" him.  This is a grown man we're talking about.  You don't "control" grown men.  You're either equipped to either deal with his personality, or you're not.   

If you're not equipped to deal with him, stay away.  If you are, you bring him in.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

29 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You say that team doesn't make the playoffs?  I agree.  We probably get close though.  And I think Trae and Collins playing with a player like Butler, improves them all around as players, than playing with non-leaders like Baze and Pierce . . . and then having to be the young leaders for Cam and Deandre Hunter.

 

Freudian slip, I guess.

I meant Taurean Prince . . . not Coach Pierce.

[Dean Walker]

I always thought bud was overrated and he’s finally getting exposed.

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Also, Butler talked about people "controlling" him.  This is a grown man we're talking about.  You don't "control" grown men.  You're either equipped to either deal with his personality, or you're not.   

If you're not equipped to deal with him, stay away.  If you are, you bring him in.

Totally agree.

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Freudian slip, I guess.

I meant Taurean Prince . . . not Coach Pierce.

You had it right the 1st time!  LOL!

[Dean Walker]

7 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Lakers/Rockets....anyone else think LAL should start Anthony Davis at Center , LBJ at PF instead of starting McGee?  Houston doesn't need to guard McGee so his size becomes mostly irrelevant to Houston's small ball lineup. He also isn't much of a rebounder/shotblocker/shot alterer to make a difference on that end.

I would start Rondo (I know he was late to the bubble due to hand injury) and let him guard Eric Gordon.

Then match up KCP and Green with Harden and Westbrook.

That leaves LBJ and Davis vs Covington and Tucker.

This is not a series for McGee and Dwight - they don't have enough punch to make a difference.

Totally agree. Houston’s small ball makes Dwight and mcgee unplayable in this series.

AD’s reluctance to play center makes what they do in this series going forward very interesting.