No Extension for John Collins

[BangHolman]

1 hour ago, mrhonline said:

I don't share the optimism of a lot of you.

1. Unless John regresses, he's getting a max offer of 4/125. (And there's a good chance that 4th year is a PO).

2. I don't think the Hawks want to pay John what his market value will be.

3. I don't think they're willing to trade him either.

We'll see...

I think there's a good chance that John statistically regresses given the talent that will be taking away touches, and if he doesn't, he's probably worth that max. Until then, he's more Sabonis, Turner, Issac, etc than Siakam when it comes to contracts. This is a calculated risk than any GM should take with a RFA they don't think is worth a max contract.

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Well, people see the 20/10 Collins.  That's great.. and his shooting from outside is a plus but we go out and draft Bam.  We go out and get Gallo....   the 20/10 Collins is good trade material.   Even with us making an offer, it was probably a low market offer so that we can keep the trade options open.   I suppose that this will be a showcase season for JC. 

I think Schlenk just wants to keep his options open at this point and wouldn't match Collins on a deal he didn't think was tradeable.

[bleachkit]

If worst comes to worst, we can always max him next summer. I doubt his representation was offering much of a discount. I don't know of course, I suspect we were hoping for 4/90, they wanted 4/120. If the numbers were closer a deal would probably have gotten done. Schlenk and company wants to see another year before committing a max or near max investment. 

[REHawksFan]

I argued after free agency and it remains true now....it just makes more sense to wait and see how JC fits with the new additions.  And to see if he's really a 20/10 guy on a good team or if his 20/10 was a product of being the 2nd best player and beneficiary of the best player's playmaking on a crappy team.  What we've seen so far in the preseason seems to validate this opinion as JC seems lost (expectedly, I admit) and certainly doesn't seem like he's about to put up 20/10 again.  The question is how good can he be on a playoff team surrounded by quality players?  We're about to find out.  And THAT'S why you don't max him out before seeing his fit.  IMO.  

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Regarding the 'max qualifying offer' that sounds like basically a crappy thing to do to a player like JC.  Seems like it would guarantee him wanting out. 

If our goal is to be a competitive playoff team and hopefully soon a contender then I'm not seeing Gallo and OO as answers at PF.   I mean we don't want to pay JC because of his defensive issues but we think Gallo is the answer?  Not buying that.

That's the truth.

It depends on our mode of offense... i.e. coaching. Basketball at the pro level is no longer about ISO game and it's moving away from the 2 man game also. GS has changed the dynamic.  It could be that we're focused on the Coach Bud model of play.  If that be the case, JC can be traded. 

 

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I argued after free agency and it remains true now....it just makes more sense to wait and see how JC fits with the new additions.  And to see if he's really a 20/10 guy on a good team or if his 20/10 was a product of being the 2nd best player and beneficiary of the best player's playmaking on a crappy team.  What we've seen so far in the preseason seems to validate this opinion as JC seems lost (expectedly, I admit) and certainly doesn't seem like he's about to put up 20/10 again.  The question is how good can he be on a playoff team surrounded by quality players?  We're about to find out.  And THAT'S why you don't max him out before seeing his fit.  IMO.  

Basically. There's no upside for us to max him now. And his camp wasn't interested in a discount. So here we are. Hawks would have jumped on anything 100mil or under I'm sure.

[macdaddy]

15 minutes ago, Diesel said:

It depends on our mode of offense... i.e. coaching. Basketball at the pro level is no longer about ISO game and it's moving away from the 2 man game also. GS has changed the dynamic.  It could be that we're focused on the Coach Bud model of play.  If that be the case, JC can be traded. 

 

I'm pretty sure we aren't focused on the Coach Bud model.  

[JayBirdHawk]

45 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Regarding the 'max qualifying offer' that sounds like basically a crappy thing to do to a player like JC.  Seems like it would guarantee him wanting out. 

If our goal is to be a competitive playoff team and hopefully soon a contender then I'm not seeing Gallo and OO as answers at PF.   I mean we don't want to pay JC because of his defensive issues but we think Gallo is the answer?  Not buying that.

That's the truth.

Agree with bolded.

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm pretty sure we aren't focused on the Coach Bud model.  

If you look at our personnel... I would say... not so fast...

Trae, Gallo, BB, Clint.....   That's 3 3pt shooters and a Rebounder. .. plus.. we have some slashes.    Bud's goal was always to have shooting from the 1,2, and 4 spot with a rebounder and a slasher.   It's the Bud/GS Model.  The only thing is that our defenders are not as good as GS.   Collins can be replaced because we have Gallo.  You don't pay depth that much...He became leverage the day he was signed. 

I believe that a GS offense can work with Collins... but Collins game is still down on the blocks a lot. 

 

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Agree with bolded.

I'm sure the team made him a competitive offer. If he wants the max or near max, he'll have to wait another year. 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Agree with bolded.

OO may be the answer?  Until he is healthy and we can see him integrated with the rest of the starters, we don't know what we have with OO.   But imagine.. if OO is a Deke like defensive force (I know this is a stretch)... what happens to Collins value?  I mean, if we could get 12, 10, and 2 from OO with 2.8 bpg and he sets a defensive tone on the inside....   Wouldn't John Collins be traded? 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

I'm sure the team made him a competitive offer. If he wants the max or near max, he'll have to wait another year. 

I'd like to know what the offer was before I make a definitive statement.

[Diesel]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

I'd like to know what the offer was before I make a definitive statement.

We like to think the best of our team.  But lowballing him makes some sense. 

What if we offered 4/80...

The thinking is... in a couple, we have to give Trae the max.  With all these other contracts that we have given, we can't put ourselves into Cap Hell if we don't have a team that's top 4 in the east.

 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

OO may be the answer?  Until he is healthy and we can see him integrated with the rest of the starters, we don't know what we have with OO.   But imagine.. if OO is a Deke like defensive force (I know this is a stretch)... what happens to Collins value?  I mean, if we could get 12, 10, and 2 from OO with 2.8 bpg and he sets a defensive tone on the inside....   Wouldn't John Collins be traded? 

Yes.  Yes it is.

The number of bigs that have been a Deke like defensive force since his prime can probably be counted on one hand.

[JayBirdHawk]

Just now, Diesel said:

OO may be the answer?  Until he is healthy and we can see him integrated with the rest of the starters, we don't know what we have with OO.   But imagine.. if OO is a Deke like defensive force (I know this is a stretch)... what happens to Collins value?  I mean, if we could get 12, 10, and 2 from OO with 2.8 bpg and he sets a defensive tone on the inside....   Wouldn't John Collins be traded? 

Schlenk's own words that eventually OO may develop into a PF, right now he isn't. The problem is the pairing with Capela on offense, if what we saw in preseason, the last game in particular, with Collins standing at the 3 point line, while he watches the PnR being run with Capela and Trae, no that's not OO's strength just like it isn't Collins'.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Yes.  Yes it is.

The number of bigs that have been a Deke like defensive force since his prime can probably be counted on one hand.

Yeah.. DeAndre Jordan, Drummond and Marc Gasol. 

But those are the superbigs.  What I mean is what if he relatively speaking is like Deke was to his Hawks team for us.   A guy that can impact the game defensively. 

 

[kg01]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Yes.  Yes it is.

The number of bigs that have been a Deke like defensive force since his prime can probably be counted on one hand.

Nah, let's just assume he'll be that as a rookie just so I can post a bunch-a trade-Collins stuff. 

Man this place is gonna be toxic for the next few weeks at least.  Trade Collins, bench Bogd, bench Hunter, bench Reddish, trade Heurter, fire CLP, Rondo sux.

Yeesh.  I hope you're eatin' yer wheaties, mod.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Schlenk's own words that eventually OO may develop into a PF, right now he isn't. The problem is the pairing with Capela on offense, if what we saw in preseason, the last game in particular, with Collins standing at the 3 point line, while he watches the PnR being run with Capela and Trae, no that's not OO's strength just like it isn't Collins'.

Speaks Volumes. 

You know who has that strength???   Gallo.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

We like to think the best of our team.  But lowballing him makes some sense. 

What if we offered 4/80...

The thinking is... in a couple, we have to give Trae the max.  With all these other contracts that we have given, we can't put ourselves into Cap Hell if we don't have a team that's top 4 in the east.

 

I'd call that a low ball offer.  If we offered anything less than that, it is an outright insult.  But there is a large gap between 120M and 80M where the two sides might have been playing.

Until I hear otherwise, I am assuming that JC's people wanted the max and didn't offer anything far from that and I'm assuming the Hawks offered something in the 85-100M range.  With a gap of around $10-25M, both sides decided to see what the market looks like next summer.  And I'm good with that.

As I've said before and others have also said, let's see what JC looks like on a much more competitive roster and how the season plays out before committing to max or near max money.  I strongly believe we'll be able to sign him for that next offseason if he does a Brandon Ingram.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yeah.. DeAndre Jordan, Drummond and Marc Gasol. 

But those are the superbigs.  What I mean is what if he relatively speaking is like Deke was to his Hawks team for us.   A guy that can impact the game defensively. 

 

I don't think any of those guys were close to what Deke was for us.  Rudy Gobert is the only one on my list from the current league's bigs as far as guys I'd compare to Deke.  High rebounds and blocks alone don't make a Deke.