No Extension for John Collins

[Peoriabird]

16 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Did a Collins Salary Breakdown (may have done it before):

Collins' max is 25% of the salary cap (currently $109 million) so his starting salary would be $27.25. He is eligible for an 8% annual increase so over 5 years, the Hawks can offer a max of $27.2, $29.4, $31.6, $33.8, $36. So 5yr/$170 million - Jamal Murray, DeAaron Fox, Jayson Tatum, Brandon Ingram all signed for these amounts, Siakam signed a 4yr/$130 mil.

A team offering Collins a RFA offer this offseason will be limited to offering him a 4 year deal with only 5% raises. So a max offer from another team will look something like: $27.2, $28.5, $29.9, $31.3, so 4yrs/$117 mil is the max another team can offer. (calculations based on $109, if cap goes up his starting salary goes up).

Hawks offered 4yr/$90 mil (rumored) so the breakdown is something like this, with a starting salary of $20, $21.6, $23.3, $25.1. So the difference between what the Hawks offered vs what a team can offer him as a RFA over 4 years is $27 mil.

So:

5yr Max from Hawks - $170 mil

4yr Max from Hawks - $130 mil

4yr Max from another team - $117 mil

4yr offer from Hawks - $90 mil (rumored)

What I haven't seen is what the JC's camp ACTUAL request was. We know he said he thinks he deserves a max but what was the ask during the actual negotiations or was it a strict take it or leave it offer from the Hawks.

I would like to think there is some wiggle room between the $90 mil and $117 mil to come to a meeting of the minds.

Good work Jaybird!

[terrell]

In my opinion, this season, John is the 4th most impactful Hawk. That’s behind Hunter, Trae, and Capela. So he's been the 4th most impactful player on a team that is currently below .500. That is not someone you pay $170Million over 5 years......

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by terrell

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, terrell said:

In my opinion, this season, John is the 4th most impactful Hawk. That’s behind Hunter, Trae, and Capela. So he's been the 4th most impactful player on a team that is currently below .500. That is not someone you pay $170Million over 5 years......

 

That's not even an option right now I assure you.

The most John can be offered by another team is 4yrs 117. We would match that number all day before choosing to offer the full 5 yr max. His last chance would have been before the season if we wanted to go full max. Now it makes sense to wait for the market to speak.

JC's next contract from us will land somewhere between the 4yr/90 mil we offered and the 4/117 max that another team can offer. Schlenk has to know right now that he is willing to match up to 4/117 otherwise JC should be getting traded before the deadline.

The full max is virtually off the table right now.

[terrell]

58 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

That's not even an option right now I assure you.

The most John can be offered by another team is 4yrs 117. We would match that number all day before choosing to offer the full 5 yr max. His last chance would have been before the season if we wanted to go full max. Now it makes sense to wait for the market to speak.

JC's next contract from us will land somewhere between the 4yr/90 mil we offered and the 4/117 max that another team can offer. Schlenk has to know right now that he is willing to match up to 4/117 otherwise JC should be getting traded before the deadline.

The full max is virtually off the table right now.

Even then, If Schlenk was willing to pay a player not named Trae 30 mill a year, he would've signed Gordon Hayward..lol. Hayward contract not looking so bad right now after looking at  those numbers...

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, terrell said:

Even then, If Schlenk was willing to pay a player not named Trae 30 mill a year, he would've signed Gordon Hayward..lol. Hayward contract not looking so bad right now after looking at  those numbers...

Schlenk gave Gallo and Bogi $37.5 million combined vs Gordon at $30. Those were our options at the time. 

[terrell]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Schlenk gave Gallo and Bogi $37.5 million combined vs Gordon at $30. Those were our options at the time. 

Thats kinda what Im saying... He wasn't willing to give 1 player 30 mill..lol

Edited March 9, 2021 by terrell

[Spud2nique]

On 3/7/2021 at 6:49 AM, Peoriabird said:

Good work Jaybird!

 https://giphy.com/gifs/jimgaffigan-jim-gaffigan-8cdfoJuYuz2u27DAAO

 

[BangHolman]

On 3/7/2021 at 9:32 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

Did a Collins Salary Breakdown (may have done it before):

Collins' max is 25% of the salary cap (currently $109 million) so his starting salary would be $27.25. He is eligible for an 8% annual increase so over 5 years, the Hawks can offer a max of $27.2, $29.4, $31.6, $33.8, $36. So 5yr/$170 million - Jamal Murray, DeAaron Fox, Jayson Tatum, Brandon Ingram all signed for these amounts, Siakam signed a 4yr/$130 mil.

A team offering Collins a RFA offer this offseason will be limited to offering him a 4 year deal with only 5% raises. So a max offer from another team will look something like: $27.2, $28.5, $29.9, $31.3, so 4yrs/$117 mil is the max another team can offer. (calculations based on $109, if cap goes up his starting salary goes up).

Hawks offered 4yr/$90 mil (rumored) so the breakdown is something like this, with a starting salary of $20, $21.6, $23.3, $25.1. So the difference between what the Hawks offered vs what a team can offer him as a RFA over 4 years is $27 mil.

So:

5yr Max from Hawks - $170 mil

4yr Max from Hawks - $130 mil

4yr Max from another team - $117 mil

4yr offer from Hawks - $90 mil (rumored)

What I haven't seen is what the JC's camp ACTUAL request was. We know he said he thinks he deserves a max but what was the ask during the actual negotiations or was it a strict take it or leave it offer from the Hawks.

I would like to think there is some wiggle room between the $90 mil and $117 mil to come to a meeting of the minds.

Pretty easy decision for me. He's not Murray, Fox, Tatum, or Ingram. He's closer to Siakam, whom I would considered overpaid. Ride it out to RFA, offer him a fair deal then decide to S&T or Match if someone else offers him a 4 year Max at $117. My assumption is there would be middle ground between the $90 and 117.

[RedDawg#8]

23 minutes ago, BangHolman said:

Pretty easy decision for me. He's not Murray, Fox, Tatum, or Ingram. He's closer to Siakam, whom I would considered overpaid. Ride it out to RFA, offer him a fair deal then decide to S&T or Match if someone else offers him a 4 year Max at $117. My assumption is there would be middle ground between the $90 and 117.

I would agree, however, my fear is someone will get desperate as this FA class is pretty weak. It sets up JC for an overpay for sure, but likely by some scrub team. He will likely choose between taking less than 117 for a playoff team (which hopefully includes us) or taking as much as he can get to play for Detroit or Minny or someone in that range.

A happy medium would be like 26 per year, 4yr 104, something like that.

[macdaddy]

i would match at 4/117 all day long.   They should have just offered that.  That's 4 million more a year than what they already offered.   That's like a fraction of Rondo.

To me he's a difference maker at PF.   We don't bring him back then we're struggling to fill that position for years potentially.  Plus the dude is a guy you want to have around.    

[AHF]

26 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

i would match at 4/117 all day long.   They should have just offered that.  That's 4 million more a year than what they already offered.   That's like a fraction of Rondo.

To me he's a difference maker at PF.   We don't bring him back then we're struggling to fill that position for years potentially.  Plus the dude is a guy you want to have around.    

They can match that all day long.  Why should they have done that if market was below there?  If his improved defense, etc. and the drying up of alternatives on the FA market makes 4/117 an inevitability you can always pull the trigger on that.  But if he had another substance issue, if he couldn't coexist with Cap, if he struggled to find a productive role on a much deeper roster, etc. then he would clearly not be worth that much so why not let it play out and reserve the right to match?

I think the approach of offering him $90-somethingM and seeing you could sign him at a discount was the right one for the team.  Just make sure he feels appreciated (within the context of not offering a max) and don't insult him, etc. and then let it play out and resign him at the market appropriate price this offseason.

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

They can match that all day long.  Why should they have done that if market was below there?  If his improved defense, etc. and the drying up of alternatives on the FA market makes 4/117 an inevitability you can always pull the trigger on that.  But if he had another substance issue, if he couldn't coexist with Cap, if he struggled to find a productive role on a much deeper roster, etc. then he would clearly not be worth that much so why not let it play out and reserve the right to match?

I think the approach of offering him $90-somethingM and seeing you could sign him at a discount was the right one for the team.  Just make sure he feels appreciated (within the context of not offering a max) and don't insult him, etc. and then let it play out and resign him at the market appropriate price this offseason.

This.

And it was still prudent to wait so that they get to keep his $12 million dollar caphold in lieu of it being $20+ caphold since we won'thave capspace.  It leaves more flexibility in any other off season trades. 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, BangHolman said:

Pretty easy decision for me. He's not Murray, Fox, Tatum, or Ingram. He's closer to Siakam, whom I would considered overpaid. Ride it out to RFA, offer him a fair deal then decide to S&T or Match if someone else offers him a 4 year Max at $117. My assumption is there would be middle ground between the $90 and 117.

If it's a SnT - What do you expect back?

We offered the Kings Snell and the OKC 1st. 

The Bucks got a 1st rounder (#24) and 2 2nds from Indy in a SnT for Malcolm Brogdon.

If a team has the capspace to sign him outright, we won't get any real value - they'd pretty much be paying us not to match and not for JC's real on court value, so be prepared for a less than stellar offer.

[macdaddy]

45 minutes ago, AHF said:

Just make sure he feels appreciated (within the context of not offering a max) and don't insult him, etc. and then let it play out and resign him at the market appropriate price this offseason.

This.   Extending him sends a message.   I don't have an issue with what they did but extending him takes away all the possibilities of hurt feelings and the distractions of 'Hawks are listening to offers for JC' during the season.     We'll see how it plays out.  Hopefully he is a Hawk for a long time.

[BangHolman]

36 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If it's a SnT - What do you expect back?

We offered the Kings Snell and the OKC 1st. 

The Bucks got a 1st rounder (#24) and 2 2nds from Indy in a SnT for Malcolm Brogdon.

If a team has the capspace to sign him outright, we won't get any real value - they'd pretty much be paying us not to match and not for JC's real on court value, so be prepared for a less than stellar offer.

Either of those are fine, a long with the TPE.

I don't think our route to a championship involves Collins at a max, so it's a pivot. Those draft picks are assets that can be used in trade.

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

To me he's a difference maker at PF.   We don't bring him back then we're struggling to fill that position for years potentially.  Plus the dude is a guy you want to have around.    

I agree. I don't want to lose him because he is still getting better and better each year, with no real weakness anymore other than cant defend centers. 

I am anxious to see what Nate can pull out of him if he decided to make JC a more prominent focus of the offense or not.

Dre and Clint both cut in to the things John does well, so his counting numbers take a hit. (His production bounced right back after Dre went down). But you look at him and see a versatile and efficient, inside and out PF with great character and marketability. 

[terrell]

2 hours ago, BangHolman said:

Pretty easy decision for me. He's not Murray, Fox, Tatum, or Ingram. He's closer to Siakam, whom I would considered overpaid. Ride it out to RFA, offer him a fair deal then decide to S&T or Match if someone else offers him a 4 year Max at $117. My assumption is there would be middle ground between the $90 and 117.

Id say he's closer to Sabonis..

[BangHolman]

1 minute ago, terrell said:

Id say he's closer to Sabonis..

I agree. I was just using the names listed as recent max contracts. Sabonis, who didn't get one, is definitely a more fair comp.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, BangHolman said:

I agree. I was just using the names listed as recent max contracts. Sabonis, who didn't get one, is definitely a more fair comp.

People like to used Sabonis as his comparison and that Indy was a winning team etc. without taking into account their roster and starting lineup - Sabonis was coming off the bench averaging 14/8 when he got his deal with a lower salary cap. (and this is not me saying I would pay Collins the max, but team dynamics matter).

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, terrell said:

Id say he's closer to Sabonis..

And Sabonis' contract is below market value.  They got a deal with that one.  That is what we tried to do this offseason.  If Indy had to pay market for Sabonis, would they let him walk?