2021 Atlanta Hawks Summer League Thread

[sillent]

20 minutes ago, niremetal said:

It's doubly troubling because it was a similar lack of involvement that led him to totally give up on Duke. And it's going to be a LOT longer before he's going to have a big role on a decent NBA team than it would have been at Duke. 

It definitely would be. We have to also keep in mind that not all teenagers coming into their 20's mature at the same pace.

The good/great thing about us is we have plenty of players around his age that can set a better example for him. Not only are they his age but they are more skilled than him at this point. His talent alone want cut it on this team if he doesn't put in the work physically and mentally. 

We are one of the teams in the best position to enjoy the risk vs reward with Jalen Johnson.

[niremetal]

3 minutes ago, ATLHawks3 said:

Nah. Too early in this process to label anyone a bust. It's just one game, a summer league game at that, and it's an easily correctable thing that coaches can correct him on. 

I'm not labeling him a bust. I said if I had to guess on how his career would turn out, I would put that money on bust.

And I'm not sure it's correctable. That requires an insight into Jalen's psyche that I just don't have. But I will say that NBA history is absolutely littered with examples showing that drive/motor/commitment/ability to overcome adversity/etc is not something that is easily taught. 

[bleachkit]

8 minutes ago, niremetal said:

I'm not labeling him a bust. I said if I had to guess on how his career would turn out, I would put that money on bust.

And I'm not sure it's correctable. That requires an insight into Jalen's psyche that I just don't have. But I will say that NBA history is absolutely littered with examples showing that drive/motor/commitment/ability to overcome adversity/etc is not something that is easily taught. 

You have to bring it every night. And early in your career when you're not getting minutes, it's really hard to stay ready. 

[Sothron]

Are people actually doubting a kid's heart and motor over a second half in a summer league game? Please, please tell me I'm on @kg01 secret stash or something. I know I am not seeing this. Unreal is the non profanity version of what I'm thinking.

[marco102]

12 minutes ago, niremetal said:

I'm not labeling him a bust. I said if I had to guess on how his career would turn out, I would put that money on bust.

And I'm not sure it's correctable. That requires an insight into Jalen's psyche that I just don't have. But I will say that NBA history is absolutely littered with examples showing that drive/motor/commitment/ability to overcome adversity/etc is not something that is easily taught. 

I'm not saying this is a nonsensical comment, but If I had a guess  on it, I would put money that it is. 

See, you are clearly calling him a bust for some reason. 

[niremetal]

19 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'm not saying this is a nonsensical comment, but If I had a guess  on it, I would put money that it is. 

See, you are clearly calling him a bust for some reason. 

No I'm not. I won't know if he's a bust until his career is at least a few years in. Right now I have no basis for assessing his career. Instead, I'm making a gut-level prediction of what I think his career would be if I had to make a guess. I'm basing that on his time in HS and college and what I feel like are glimpses of the same stuff here. He still has lots of time to turn it around, but my (very early) prediction is that he don won't. If you can't see the distinction between a prediction and a label like that, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyway, I've been around long enough to realize that my predictions are often wrong. I'm hoping this ends up being one of those wrong predictions.

Edited August 13, 2021 by niremetal

[Bonkers]

Too many hot takes in here

[NBASupes]

You can be disappointed in JJ attitude tonight and still think his ceiling is sky high. 

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, jy23 said:

The emotional swings in here from one game to the next are mind blowing lol. 

Summer league people, jesus christ the games are exhibitions.

[niremetal]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

You can be disappointed in JJ attitude tonight and still think his ceiling is sky high. 

^^^^^this

On a totally unrelated note, here's a crazy thought--maybe people need to take posts on the Squawk a bit less seriously/personally.

This is an Internet fan blog, for pete's sake. I admit I've been gone awhile,  but far as I've always known/seen, predictions and gut reactions based on ridiculously incomplete information are pretty much an essential part of the content of a site like this.

I don't see why predictions and gut reactions should suddenly stop just because it's Summer League. I mean, after the draft, no one says "DON'T POST DRAFT GRADES OR MAKE ANY PREDICTIONS ABOUT HOW A PLAYER'S CAREER WILL TURN OUT. NO HOT TAKES! IT'S TOO EARLY!" Because half the fun of talking about the draft is getting different people's reactions and thoughts on the picks. Well, a couple games into Summer League, we have a little more info on these players than we had at draft time, so I don't get why people are suddenly pearl-clutching about predictions or reactions.

I'm not labeling Jalen a bust, or giving up on him, or anything like that. I actually still think he was a great pick at #20 because guys with his talent level are almost never available that low. As I mentioned earlier, the average #20 pick has a ~3-5 year career as a marginal rotation player. Jalen's ceiling, like@NBASupessaid, is way higher than that. So I think it was a great pick because I think swinging for the fences was the right call given where the Hawks are.

That said, I'm taking the new stuff I've seen over the past few days and adding it to what I knew about Jalen before the draft, and having a gut reaction that leads me to a not-very-informed, casual prediction that I don't think he'll go on to have a good career. I am 100% aware that he has only played 3 SL games and that he still has tons of time to prove me wrong, and I hope he does. But the knock on him before the draft was that he expects things to come easy for him and he doesn't push through adversity when it doesn't. The most obvious evidence for that was that he quit on both his high school and college teams. I felt like it continued during his pre-draft process when he went through his workouts and skipped parts of the combine like he didn't really have anything to prove. Those were major red flags that gave 18 GMs pause before TS picked him. Now, I feel like I've seen a few more red flags since then.

(One that actually rankled me more than some of the on-court sequences is his statement to a reporter that he asked an assistant coach to review film so he could work on stuff. This is a personal bias, but I come from a "show me, don't tell me" perspective. Going and telling a reporter about it strikes me as the move of someone who wants people to *think* he cares about improving his game more than he does about actually improving his game.)

Anyway, I really, truly hope Jalen succeeds. He's got oodles of time to turn things around. But I don't like the layman's "vibe" I get off of him, and I'm saying so. You don't like reading that, feel free to scroll.

Edited August 13, 2021 by niremetal

[NBASupes]

While I am not sold on anyone who's not in the Big 3. Schofield showed me he can set good screens and against lesser comp, I seen some offensive flashes. I would like to add him on a E10 deal. Same for Heidegger. I like him as a E10 player. 

We need 3 more E10 guys. I would love to sign Liangelo Ball. 

We need two E10 wings. We signed an E10 center already. We also signed Watson. We can sign up to 6 E10 players. 

[MarylandHawk]

What am I missing here?  Dude had a double double in 20 something minutes. He was frustrated by the crazy man play of the G League MVP whose game was junk yard dog cagey veteran hustleman grabby type.   I would have been frustrated too. He still had a great game and wanted to win down the stretch but his teammates were finding him late. I love everything I have seen from Deuce Coop and Dynamite so far in summer league. 

[MarylandHawk]

5 hours ago, niremetal said:

^^^^^this

On a totally unrelated note, here's a crazy thought--maybe people need to take posts on the Squawk a bit less seriously/personally.

This is an Internet fan blog, for pete's sake. I admit I've been gone awhile,  but far as I've always known/seen, predictions and gut reactions based on ridiculously incomplete information are pretty much an essential part of the content of a site like this.

I don't see why predictions and gut reactions should suddenly stop just because it's Summer League. I mean, after the draft, no one says "DON'T POST DRAFT GRADES OR MAKE ANY PREDICTIONS ABOUT HOW A PLAYER'S CAREER WILL TURN OUT. NO HOT TAKES! IT'S TOO EARLY!" Because half the fun of talking about the draft is getting different people's reactions and thoughts on the picks. Well, a couple games into Summer League, we have a little more info on these players than we had at draft time, so I don't get why people are suddenly pearl-clutching about predictions or reactions.

I'm not labeling Jalen a bust, or giving up on him, or anything like that. I actually still think he was a great pick at #20 because guys with his talent level are almost never available that low. As I mentioned earlier, the average #20 pick has a ~3-5 year career as a marginal rotation player. Jalen's ceiling, like@NBASupessaid, is way higher than that. So I think it was a great pick because I think swinging for the fences was the right call given where the Hawks are.

That said, I'm taking the new stuff I've seen over the past few days and adding it to what I knew about Jalen before the draft, and having a gut reaction that leads me to a not-very-informed, casual prediction that I don't think he'll go on to have a good career. I am 100% aware that he has only played 3 SL games and that he still has tons of time to prove me wrong, and I hope he does. But the knock on him before the draft was that he expects things to come easy for him and he doesn't push through adversity when it doesn't. The most obvious evidence for that was that he quit on both his high school and college teams. I felt like it continued during his pre-draft process when he went through his workouts and skipped parts of the combine like he didn't really have anything to prove. Those were major red flags that gave 18 GMs pause before TS picked him. Now, I feel like I've seen a few more red flags since then.

(One that actually rankled me more than some of the on-court sequences is his statement to a reporter that he asked an assistant coach to review film so he could work on stuff. This is a personal bias, but I come from a "show me, don't tell me" perspective. Going and telling a reporter about it strikes me as the move of someone who wants people to *think* he cares about improving his game more than he does about actually improving his game.)

Anyway, I really, truly hope Jalen succeeds. He's got oodles of time to turn things around. But I don't like the layman's "vibe" I get off of him, and I'm saying so. You don't like reading that, feel free to scroll.

Not to pile on but I think you are putting too much stock in this quitting thing.  I see a guy that is hungry to reach his goal of playing top level basketball. He believes in himself and will stop at nothing until he is where he wants to be. His style of play is unselfish hustling High IQ basketball littered with athleticism.  That will translate very well in the NBA. He is the opposite of quitter.  He wants to be number one. It will push everybody else on the team. 

[deester11]

The reality is that Jalen is an enigma until he's not.  He can play. Desire, heart, yada, yada are going to show themselves in time.  Not after 3 SL games. As been stated, the Hawks can afford to take swings on huge talent.  Can someone tell me when...has that been an option for the Hawks?  He technically COULD bust and it not really affect the Hawks at all.  That's called a luxury.

I love what Jalen can be.  For me, I do want to see that he's coachable, how he matures, if he can fit into the hierarchy of a team he's not the focal point of and improve as a player.  His skillset gives him more than a punchers chance to succeed.  

[kg01]

7 hours ago, Sothron said:

Are people actually doubting a kid's heart and motor over a second half in a summer league game? Please, please tell me I'm on @kg01 secret stash or something. I know I am not seeing this. Unreal is the non profanity version of what I'm thinking.

It just highlights one thing we all need to keep remembering, 'don't read too much into summer league performances', good or bad.

We are the one fanbase that should know that axiom well.

[marco102]

6 hours ago, niremetal said:

 

Anyway, I really, truly hope Jalen succeeds. He's got oodles of time to turn things around. But I don't like the layman's "vibe" I get off of him, and I'm saying so. You don't like reading that, feel free to scroll.

You are entitled to have your opinions. No one is mad at you for having them. Just don't sit here and act like you calling someone a bust from three summer league games is not what you did.

If I called you a blue alien doesn't mean you are. I stilled called you a blue alien. 

If you think he will be a bust, then stick with your guns and don't be personally be offended when someone debates you on it. 

You spelled out the reasons you think he won't succeed. It'll be pretty hard for Jalen not to be in the league for four years so by your own criteria he will most likely be successful. I think he will at least get a second contract.

Edited August 13, 2021 by marco102

[marco102]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

You can be disappointed in JJ attitude tonight and still think his ceiling is sky high. 

Taking tonight's game to project his career is not being disappointed in him. There is a difference.

[dalamchops]

i can see JJ turning out like smoove, not quite a bust, shows flashes of talent but also a head case and could never quite put it together to achieve stardom. though if he's putting up 9WS year like smoove did at his peak that's tremendous value for a 20th pick.

Edited August 13, 2021 by dalamchops

[MarylandHawk]

20 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Taking tonight's game to project his career is not being disappointed in him. There is a difference.

A difference without distinction. 

[AHF]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

While I am not sold on anyone who's not in the Big 3. Schofield showed me he can set good screens and against lesser comp, I seen some offensive flashes. I would like to add him on a E10 deal. Same for Heidegger. I like him as a E10 player. 

We need 3 more E10 guys. I would love to sign Liangelo Ball. 

We need two E10 wings. We signed an E10 center already. We also signed Watson. We can sign up to 6 E10 players. 

There is no downside to E10 deals but I can't see Schofield or Heidegger being anything more than practice / pre-season fodder.  I've enjoyed the decision-making I've seen from Heidegger in particular but I don't think there is a future there.