Official Game Thread: Hawks at heat (2 of 2)

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Most aren't undervaluing him - just asking for him to be more as a #4 pick.

Ask any anyone what's his best skillset in 'ONE WORD'?

Based on the history of 4th overall picks in the last 20 years. He stands to be in the top 10. 

Two words. Defensive versatility 

Or 

 

Two-way

Edited March 8, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

In this latest edition of @NBASupes vs. Hawksquawk, I think Dre’s career on/ off per 100 shows both opinions have merit.  
 

He’s -.09 on because his ideal role on a contender is around 7th man and he simply doesn’t have the motor or an advanced sense of ball and man movement like many players who are +2 and up.  -1 to 0 is usually the “on” value of players who “stay out the way.”  Dre’s never gonna be caught way out of defensive position or take some bonehead shot, and there’s real value in that just ask any team who’s employed Russell Westbrook.  Even after years of piling up ridiculous stats his teams haven’t seen a drop off of a single point when he’s off (3.7 on, 3.7 on/ off net lol)

Dre’s helped set the standard for Hawks’ mediocrity in the record and net rating being a starter during the Trae Era.  Yet the Hawks lose 3 points per 100 when he’s off because his defensive footwork and positioning, size, and good low volume mix of 3 level scoring is a considerable amount of tools to lose.  Part of that is poor depth behind him but I give him the bulk of credit.  My favorite parts of his game by far are his shot fake, close-out attack, and shot challenge.  Really wished he was more communicative on defense and cut more instinctively.  I think in the first heat game Quinn had him sprint from the wing to the opposite elbow and he eventually scored a driving layup, it was a real good look.
 

I’m in general agreement with Supes on his value but I surely wouldn’t defend him too tough lol.  Just by looking at their college ratings I would’ve taken Cam Johnson without a second thought and would’ve been rewarded.  The Suns didn’t miss him when he was off because they had other forwards who are highly impactful in Crowder and Bridges but when Cam was on he was +5, a great starter/ super sub in my book.  

Great post but Cam Johnson best position is PF and he doesn't defend well at all for 3s or big wings. Even though he's average defensively as a 4 due to his defensive awareness. 

Hunter defensive versatility is the reason he's paid what he's paid. And everyone in the NBA needs that. 

I've said this before, this heliocentric offense doesn't fit Hunter but he's not a player movement 3 either. On offense, Dre is a SG with small ball 4 tendencies which is why he's a difficult fit a lot of teams offensively but his defensive value is massive for anyone. If Dre wasn't what he is on defense, he's likely a backup 2 or 3. There aren't starters like him. Backups yes but not starters. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Great post but Cam Johnson best position is PF and he doesn't defend well at all for 3s or big wings. Even though he's average defensively as a 4 due to his defensive awareness. 

Hunter defensive versatility is the reason he's paid what he's paid. And everyone in the NBA needs that. 

I've said this before, this heliocentric offense doesn't fit Hunter but he's not a player movement 3 either. On offense, Dre is a SG with small ball 4 tendencies which is why he's a difficult fit a lot of teams offensively but his defensive value is massive for anyone. If Dre wasn't what he is on defense, he's likely a backup 2 or 3. There aren't starters like him. Backups yes but not starters. 

The difference between Barnes is Barnes defense is a big issue as he's solid at the 4 but clearly below average at 3 and guarding big wings. This makes him tough to use in lineups even if he's a better offensive player than Dre and defends 4s as goof as Dre but because Dre defender 1-3 plus big wings much much better. He helps others within the lineup whereas Barnes doesn't. This is why I say there is a massive difference between the two because defense is far more important at the 3 than it is at 1 or 2 because of screen effectiveness goes down with bigger players like Hunter. 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Based on the history of 4th overall picks in the last 20 years. He stands to be in the top 10. 

Hmm.... I smell Hyperboyle..  Let's Go...  I will color code those that are better than Hunter...  and those that are clearly worse than Hunter..

• NAME
• Keegan Murray
• Scottie Barnes
• Patrick Williams
• De'Andre Hunter
• Jaren Jackson Jr.
• Josh Jackson
• Dragan Bender
• Kristaps Porzingis
• Aaron Gordon
• Cody Zeller
• Dion Waiters
• Tristan Thompson
• Wesley Johnson
• Tyreke Evans
• Russell Westbrook
• Mike Conley
• Tyrus Thomas
• Chris Paul
• Shaun Livingston
• Chris Bosh

By my calculation.. #12... Not bad @NBASupes

[NBASupes]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Hmm.... I smell Hyperboyle..  Let's Go...  I will color code those that are better than Hunter...  and those that are clearly worse than Hunter..

• NAME
• Keegan Murray
• Scottie Barnes
• Patrick Williams
• De'Andre Hunter
• Jaren Jackson Jr.
• Josh Jackson
• Dragan Bender
• Kristaps Porzingis
• Aaron Gordon
• Cody Zeller
• Dion Waiters
• Tristan Thompson
• Wesley Johnson
• Tyreke Evans
• Russell Westbrook
• Mike Conley
• Tyrus Thomas
• Chris Paul
• Shaun Livingston
• Chris Bosh

By my calculation.. #12... Not bad @NBASupes

Keegan, Evans, and Scottie aren't better or even as good as Dre. Scottie has more upside but he's still trying to figure out how to add winning value on offense. Keegan and Evans, clearly no. 

More teams would rather Dre over KP in a salary cap league

Dre >>>> Tristian Thompson

Dre is 7th or 8th.

Edit: Scottie might be the only one I'll give you if the ones I disagree with. His improvement this year has been legit. 

Evans is a no. No NBA franchise would choose Evans over Dre in the modern NBA. 

KP is a hard to fit player. He's an example of a better talent but hard fit. 

Keegan defense is below average and for a 3. That's a big deal. His offense would need to be great to cover for that. Easy no. 

Your lack of understanding the modern NBA is where you fall

Edited March 8, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

• 10. Keegan Murray
• 7. Scottie Barnes
• Patrick Williams
• 8. De'Andre Hunter
• 5. Jaren Jackson Jr.
• Josh Jackson
• Dragan Bender
• 9. Kristaps Porzingis
• 6. Aaron Gordon
• Cody Zeller
• Dion Waiters
• 13. Tristan Thompson
• Wesley Johnson
• 12. Tyreke Evans
• 2. Russell Westbrook
• 4. Mike Conley
• Tyrus Thomas
• 1. Chris Paul
• 11. Shaun Livingston
• 3. Chris Bosh

Everyone else is bust. 

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Keegan, Evans, and Scottie aren't better or even as good as Dre. Scottie has more upside but he's still trying to figure out how to add winning value on offense. Keegan and Evans, clearly no. 

More teams would rather Dre over KP in a salary cap league

Dre >>>> Tristian Thompson

Dre is 7th or 8th.

Edit: Scottie might be the only one I'll give you if the ones I disagree with. His improvement this year has been legit. 

Evans is a no. No NBA franchise would choose Evans over Dre in the modern NBA. 

KP is a hard to fit player. He's an example of a better talent but hard fit. 

Keegan defense is below average and for a 3. That's a big deal. His offense would need to be great to cover for that. Easy no. 

Your lack of understanding the modern NBA is where you fall

That's laughable...

Right now, today, if it were offered we would trade Hunter for Keegan or Scottie and would not blink.  They both are better. 

As far as Tyreke

Rk	Player	From	To	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Tyreke Evans	2010	2013	257	247	34.9	6.6	14.6	.449	0.6	2.0	.276	6.0	12.6	.477	.468	3.8	4.9	.765	0.9	3.9	4.8	4.8	1.4	0.4	2.7	2.4	17.5
2	De'Andre Hunter	2020	2023	195	189	31.0	5.0	11.2	.444	1.5	4.3	.360	3.4	6.9	.496	.512	2.4	3.0	.799	0.6	3.5	4.1	1.6	0.7	0.3	1.4	2.9	13

 

You forget that Dre is not a good rebounder.   He doesn't do well in steals or blocks either. 

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

• 10. Keegan Murray
• 7. Scottie Barnes
• Patrick Williams
• 8. De'Andre Hunter
• 5. Jaren Jackson Jr.
• Josh Jackson
• Dragan Bender
• 9. Kristaps Porzingis
• 6. Aaron Gordon
• Cody Zeller
• Dion Waiters
• 13. Tristan Thompson
• Wesley Johnson
• 12. Tyreke Evans
• 2. Russell Westbrook
• 4. Mike Conley
• Tyrus Thomas
• 1. Chris Paul
• 11. Shaun Livingston
• 3. Chris Bosh

Everyone else is bust. 

KP saw your ranking and decided to take it out on our Hawks last night!!

Quote

Kristaps Porzingis With 43 Points Vs. Atlanta Hawks

Kristaps Porzingis with 43 Points vs. Atlanta Hawks, 03/08/2023

 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

KP saw your ranking and decided to take it out on our Hawks last night!!

 

A career game. Good for him. At the end, Hunter was locking down Beal and killing it on the offensive end showing once again why teams would take that. KP playing like he played last night is a super anomaly and mainly cause Capela, Bey, and JC was getting cooked. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

That's laughable...

Right now, today, if it were offered we would trade Hunter for Keegan or Scottie and would not blink.  They both are better. 

As far as Tyreke

Rk	Player	From	To	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Tyreke Evans	2010	2013	257	247	34.9	6.6	14.6	.449	0.6	2.0	.276	6.0	12.6	.477	.468	3.8	4.9	.765	0.9	3.9	4.8	4.8	1.4	0.4	2.7	2.4	17.5
2	De'Andre Hunter	2020	2023	195	189	31.0	5.0	11.2	.444	1.5	4.3	.360	3.4	6.9	.496	.512	2.4	3.0	.799	0.6	3.5	4.1	1.6	0.7	0.3	1.4	2.9	13

 

You forget that Dre is not a good rebounder.   He doesn't do well in steals or blocks either. 

Scottie, would be interesting as he's a better all around player and a better talent but shooting is an major issue and Atlanta needs shooting from their 3. Murray, no, he can't defend well at all. Once again, Diesel poor understanding of the modern NBA strikes again

Edited March 9, 2023 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

A career game. Good for him. At the end, Hunter was locking down Beal and killing it on the offensive end showing once again why teams would take that. KP playing like he played last night is a super anomaly and mainly cause Capela, Bey, and JC was getting cooked. 

Locking down Beal???  What game were you watching??  DJ guarded Beal most of the game.   There was one play where Hunter switched off onto Beal and got a block..  but that was just one play..  Most of the time, Hunter was matched up with Gafford (when he was hurt).   As a matter of fact, Trae guarded Beal much more than Hunter did. 

Moreover.. Porzingis...

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2015-16	20	NYK	NBA	PF	72	72	28.4	5.2	12.3	.421	1.1	3.4	.333	4.1	8.9	.454	.467	2.8	3.3	.838	1.8	5.5	7.3	1.3	0.7	1.9	1.7	2.8	14.3
2016-17	21	NYK	NBA	PF	66	65	32.8	6.7	14.9	.450	1.7	4.8	.357	5.0	10.2	.493	.507	3.0	3.8	.786	1.7	5.5	7.2	1.5	0.7	2.0	1.8	3.7	18.1
2017-18	22	NYK	NBA	PF	48	48	32.4	8.1	18.5	.439	1.9	4.8	.395	6.3	13.8	.454	.489	4.5	5.7	.793	1.3	5.3	6.6	1.2	0.8	2.4	1.9	2.9	22.7
2018-19	23	Did Not Play (injury—ACL)
2019-20	24	DAL	NBA	C	57	57	31.8	7.0	16.4	.427	2.5	7.1	.352	4.5	9.3	.484	.503	4.0	5.0	.799	1.8	7.7	9.5	1.8	0.7	2.0	1.6	3.2	20.4
2020-21	25	DAL	NBA	C	43	43	30.9	7.6	15.9	.476	2.3	6.0	.376	5.3	9.9	.536	.547	2.7	3.2	.855	1.9	7.0	8.9	1.6	0.5	1.3	1.2	2.7	20.1
2021-22	26	TOT	NBA	PF	51	51	29.0	6.9	15.0	.459	1.5	4.9	.310	5.4	10.1	.532	.510	4.9	5.6	.867	2.0	6.1	8.1	2.3	0.7	1.6	1.6	2.7	20.2
2021-22	26	DAL	NBA	PF	34	34	29.5	6.7	14.9	.451	1.4	5.1	.283	5.3	9.9	.537	.499	4.3	5.0	.865	1.9	5.8	7.7	2.0	0.7	1.7	1.6	2.6	19.2
2021-22	26	WAS	NBA	PF	17	17	28.2	7.2	15.2	.475	1.7	4.6	.367	5.5	10.6	.522	.531	5.9	6.8	.871	2.2	6.6	8.8	2.9	0.7	1.5	1.6	2.9	22.1
2022-23	27	WAS	NBA	C	56	56	32.9	7.7	15.5	.497	2.1	5.5	.387	5.5	9.9	.558	.566	5.7	6.8	.847	1.9	6.6	8.5	2.6	0.8	1.5

 

He has a career of being better than Hunter. 

 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Locking down Beal???  What game were you watching??  DJ guarded Beal most of the game.   There was one play where Hunter switched off onto Beal and got a block..  but that was just one play..  Most of the time, Hunter was matched up with Gafford (when he was hurt).   As a matter of fact, Trae guarded Beal much more than Hunter did. 

Moreover.. Porzingis...

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2015-16	20	NYK	NBA	PF	72	72	28.4	5.2	12.3	.421	1.1	3.4	.333	4.1	8.9	.454	.467	2.8	3.3	.838	1.8	5.5	7.3	1.3	0.7	1.9	1.7	2.8	14.3
2016-17	21	NYK	NBA	PF	66	65	32.8	6.7	14.9	.450	1.7	4.8	.357	5.0	10.2	.493	.507	3.0	3.8	.786	1.7	5.5	7.2	1.5	0.7	2.0	1.8	3.7	18.1
2017-18	22	NYK	NBA	PF	48	48	32.4	8.1	18.5	.439	1.9	4.8	.395	6.3	13.8	.454	.489	4.5	5.7	.793	1.3	5.3	6.6	1.2	0.8	2.4	1.9	2.9	22.7
2018-19	23	Did Not Play (injury—ACL)
2019-20	24	DAL	NBA	C	57	57	31.8	7.0	16.4	.427	2.5	7.1	.352	4.5	9.3	.484	.503	4.0	5.0	.799	1.8	7.7	9.5	1.8	0.7	2.0	1.6	3.2	20.4
2020-21	25	DAL	NBA	C	43	43	30.9	7.6	15.9	.476	2.3	6.0	.376	5.3	9.9	.536	.547	2.7	3.2	.855	1.9	7.0	8.9	1.6	0.5	1.3	1.2	2.7	20.1
2021-22	26	TOT	NBA	PF	51	51	29.0	6.9	15.0	.459	1.5	4.9	.310	5.4	10.1	.532	.510	4.9	5.6	.867	2.0	6.1	8.1	2.3	0.7	1.6	1.6	2.7	20.2
2021-22	26	DAL	NBA	PF	34	34	29.5	6.7	14.9	.451	1.4	5.1	.283	5.3	9.9	.537	.499	4.3	5.0	.865	1.9	5.8	7.7	2.0	0.7	1.7	1.6	2.6	19.2
2021-22	26	WAS	NBA	PF	17	17	28.2	7.2	15.2	.475	1.7	4.6	.367	5.5	10.6	.522	.531	5.9	6.8	.871	2.2	6.6	8.8	2.9	0.7	1.5	1.6	2.9	22.1
2022-23	27	WAS	NBA	C	56	56	32.9	7.7	15.5	.497	2.1	5.5	.387	5.5	9.9	.558	.566	5.7	6.8	.847	1.9	6.6	8.5	2.6	0.8	1.5

 

He has a career of being better than Hunter. 

 

When it mattered, Hunter guarded Beal and Hunter won the matchup. 

I never said KP didn't have a better career. I said that more teams would prefer Hunter over KP in a salary-cap-driven league. There is a reason KP was traded for a tuna sandwich. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Scottie, would be interesting as he's a better all around player and a better talent but shooting is an major issue and Atlanta needs shooting from their 3. Murray, no, he can't defend well at all. Once again, Diesel poor understanding of the modern NBA strikes again

 This is ignore the facts day I see. 

Even with all of his three point shooting, Evans is still going to go out and get more points than Hunter. 

Until Hunter learns to put the ball on the floor and get buckets consistently... or to rebound above 6 rpg.. we're always going to look at him as being feeble.   You keep talking about big 3 & D wing who is a defensive marvel.  Until last night, I can't remember the last time he blocked a shot.   Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of positional defenders.   Guys who can defend in space.   For a big wing, DeAndre is average on the defense.  Even as a positional defender, you still have to get a steal sometimes or get a block sometimes.   Hunter doesn't do that.  As a positional defender, you still have to get rebounds sometimes.  Hunter doesn't do that.   And he still fouls. 

Right now, Hunter can not even be mentioned in the same breath with ROY Scottie Barnes.   Barnes can carry a whole franchise.   Hunter can not.  Barnes is compared to Draymond Green on offense for his passing and defense for his ability to guard whoever.  Hunter is not. 

When Glen Willis is pointing out all of these great things that the Hawks players are doing... where is his commentary on Hunter?  Hunter dies on screens.  Sometimes he's flat footed.  He's an average defender that you have made out to be Rodman.

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

50 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 This is ignore the facts day I see. 

Even with all of his three point shooting, Evans is still going to go out and get more points than Hunter. 

Until Hunter learns to put the ball on the floor and get buckets consistently... or to rebound above 6 rpg.. we're always going to look at him as being feeble.   You keep talking about big 3 & D wing who is a defensive marvel.  Until last night, I can't remember the last time he blocked a shot.   Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of positional defenders.   Guys who can defend in space.   For a big wing, DeAndre is average on the defense.  Even as a positional defender, you still have to get a steal sometimes or get a block sometimes.   Hunter doesn't do that.  As a positional defender, you still have to get rebounds sometimes.  Hunter doesn't do that.   And he still fouls. 

Right now, Hunter can not even be mentioned in the same breath with ROY Scottie Barnes.   Barnes can carry a whole franchise.   Hunter can not.  Barnes is compared to Draymond Green on offense for his passing and defense for his ability to guard whoever.  Hunter is not. 

When Glen Willis is pointing out all of these great things that the Hawks players are doing... where is his commentary on Hunter?  Hunter dies on screens.  Sometimes he's flat footed.  He's an average defender that you have made out to be Rodman.

 

 

 

No one is ignoring facts but you. No one in the modern NBA is taking Evans over Hunter. No one. Hunter defense for a big wing is superior to Evans value. 

You keep wanting Hunter to be something he's not and he will never be that. Get it out of your brain, it doesn't matter if he rebounds 6 a game or 4 a game. 

He's solid on defense from 1-4 plus big wings which is considered professional level. Far greater than average. Once again, you continue to show me, you don't understand Basketball much less modern NBA ball. You think like the dudes at the barbershop. Low grade thinking. 

You don't have to be a defensive marvel in the modern NBA. You need to be versatile and few are as versatile on defense as Hunter. No one cares about stocks in 2023 that's within the NBA. That's for fans and noobs. 

I disagree but then again, you don't understand the modern NBA so you will never get it. 

That last post is garbage. Cherry picking plays is signs of a noob. Watch the entire game possession by possession. Understand roles and responsibilities and then get back to me.

[AHF]

Supes -Please drop your repeated refrain of “you don’t understand the modern NBA.”

Replace it with your substantive analysis.

Example:

Don’t do this.

Poster A:  Antonio Davis is better than JJJ.

Poster B:  You only say that because you don’t understand the game.

Do this:

Poster A:  Antonio Davis is better than JJJ.

Poster B:  Antonio Davis would not be effective in today’s game while JJJ is the key for Memphis on D.  JJJ’s quickness and versatility allows JJJ to pick up the top scoring option at SF, PF or C which allows Memphis to hide its weaker defenders and lets them run switches effectively when needed.  Davis couldn’t defend outside of 10 feet of the basket and would be killed by perimeter bigs in today’s game.  On offense, Davis would clog the lane because he had no range and hurt spacing like CC does for us while JJJ stretches the floor and opens up the lane for Ja to drive.  So even if Davis scored more PPG the way he scores would not work for Memphis.

(For posts where you are already giving the substantive analysis you can just drop the “you don’t understand the modern game” bit.)

@NBASupes

[sturt]

I might be the last person to be giving advice on how to lower the temperature of a discussion... hehe... but one of the best things Gladys Hildreth ever taught me in grad school was to stop using "you" in my emails to the Dean complaining about whatever I was complaining about that day.

That simple. Eliminate the "yous"... verbal poke in the chest.

You hear that @AHF? @NBASupes?

 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

I might be the last person to be giving advice on how to lower the temperature of a discussion... hehe... but one of the best things Gladys Hildreth ever taught me in grad school was to stop using "you" in my emails to the Dean complaining about whatever I was complaining about that day.

That simple. Eliminate the "yous"... verbal poke in the chest.

You hear that @AHF? @NBASupes?

 

I hear you and agree.  Discuss the post not the poster.  Keeps things on the right track!

[benhillboy]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

I hear you and agree.  Discuss the post not the poster.  Keeps things on the right track!

Supes has admitted he has anger/ social issues he needs to work on lol.  Keep chipping away, bro!

[Diesel]

On 3/9/2023 at 10:48 AM, NBASupes said:

No one is ignoring facts but you. No one in the modern NBA is taking Evans over Hunter. No one. Hunter defense for a big wing is superior to Evans value. 

You keep wanting Hunter to be something he's not and he will never be that. Get it out of your brain, it doesn't matter if he rebounds 6 a game or 4 a game. 

He's solid on defense from 1-4 plus big wings which is considered professional level. Far greater than average. Once again, you continue to show me, you don't understand Basketball much less modern NBA ball. You think like the dudes at the barbershop. Low grade thinking. 

You don't have to be a defensive marvel in the modern NBA. You need to be versatile and few are as versatile on defense as Hunter. No one cares about stocks in 2023 that's within the NBA. That's for fans and noobs. 

I disagree but then again, you don't understand the modern NBA so you will never get it. 

That last post is garbage. Cherry picking plays is signs of a noob. Watch the entire game possession by possession. Understand roles and responsibilities and then get back to me.

Your insistence that Hunter is better than Scottie Barnes is what makes your posts laughable.   Tyreke Evans is a good argument because even though Tyreke had a much better offensive output than Hunter ~7 ppg...  Tyreke was not a 3 pt shooter and he may not have survived in this "modern" NBA...  But then again, he may have.  When he came off of suspension, he was picked up by the Warriors because they liked his size, play making ability and his ability to guard 1-3.  It's a shame that he couldn't leave the drugs alone. 

 

[Peoriabird]

Still don't get why Hunter is so disliked on this forum.  He is  the 2nd most discussed player for some reason and not in a good way.