Official Playoff Game Thread: Celtics at Hawks -- GAME 4

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I just need him to maximize whatever opportunities he gets.

LOL, and I'm just doing this while considering what to do with dat asset...

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

I mean... Yeah, that's great for us. Pretty much anyone that can be on the floor with Trae and consistently hit a three ball ideal.

Is that great for Dre?  Is that his that his natural role?  Does that help him with his ceiling? I'm only proposing what would be the ideal scenario for both him and the Hawks...not necessarily what works for both.

Having his shot respected surely gives him options for putting it on the floor. He still has to have the ball in his hands and will be waiting on it between Tre/DJ.  Sure he will get CNS opportunities, but a) the best shot he's going to get is the first one on the closeout (so he's not putting it on the floor), b) we are effectively "retro-fitting" him into a limited role the same as JC, and c) the number touches he gets is inversely proportional to how well Trae/DJ perform.

I do believe Hunter is a better player than what we've seen, but I'm not so much trying to make that argument (and certainly not willing to die on that hill).  All I'm saying is, the only thing we need from his current slot is 3nD.  Anything else that he MIGHT BE better at simply duplicates, but doesn't necessarily compliment, what we get from someone higher on the food chain.

Tonight would be the night to see a case study for what I'm saying. Hopefully we get a great game from him and bring it back to ATL. 

I have yet to see Dre do great things with a defense that is trying to stop him.  His best games have been ones where he gets lots  of open looks like last game against Boston or the Miami series last year.  I think Hunter is a valuable part of our team but I have seen nothing making me think his offense is scalable up to a 2nd option where defenses are scheming to shut him down.

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Hunter has been pretty good.  He was great in the last game but he still has 8 turnovers, which is a lot for a guy who's not a primary ball handler, and as others have said has missed a lot of open 3s.  

Someone mentioned that he needs to be the #2 option to see what he can do but that's not really possible with as bad as his handle and court vision is.  His mid range game and is good though.  would love to see him take it to the hoop more and get to the line more.   

I don't think he's been great in this series but we'd be really in trouble without him. 

I'm not making the argument that he needs to be a #2.  I'm saying that playing behind Trae/DJ is not ideal for whatever he's going to be.  I understand that there is this very polarized conversation where it's "Dre Good vs Dre Bad" or "Dre could/should be a #2 vs Dre is only a role player."  I do believe that he has more to offer and can get better with more meaninful touches, but that conversation doesn't interest me so much.

I'm more interested in looking at the team and where he fits in.  Ideally for us, we don't need another guy that can put it on the floor.  We need a post threat and a sniper.  With our backcourt, we don't necessarily need Dre to work on his handles, put the ball on the floor, etc.  What would be MORE beneficial for us is a guy who strictly shoots 3s at a high clip and plays great defense.  We need a poor man's Klay more than a poor man's Kahwi if that makes more sense.

...and ***IF*** Hunter is going to be more than a role player, this is not the ideal setting to do it.

[Spud2nique]

15 minutes ago, Wretch said:

LOL, and I'm just doing this while considering what to do with dat asset...

Bird man fly in any weather will always get a LIKE and/or a laugh  I luuuuuuu dat foo with a young lil weezy on the strip straight rollin.

[REHawksFan]

58 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Here's a link to every player in the PO with at least 10 3pt FGA that are considered WIDE OPEN.  Interesting list.  Check out who is 0-10.  Ouch.

The focus on the message board has always been 3 point shooting 

Welcome to the modern NBA.

49 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Ok 1 but no 40% shooter plus Golden State had atleast 3 career 3 point shooters so their offense could rely on 3's. Plus they played defense as well. Again, this should sink in at some point.

Maybe it will sink on for you eventually. Nates system doesn't work in the modern NBA. You don't focus on mid range, low % 2pt shots and lack 3pt shooting and win consistently. Especially when you don't play good D. 

47 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Again...Deandre Hunter is a career 35.6% shooter from 3...he is not klay Thompson

No one is asking him to be. Hitting wide open shots is not the same as a career shooter like Thompson.  NBA wings should be able to hit 40% on wide open shots. They're shooting against air.

43 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Klay Thompson has had only 1 year out of 10 where he shot less than 40% from 3 and that year he shot 38.5% which is better than Trae young's best year

And? Trae's best skill is and always had been his vision and passing. His shooting is adequate but not elite. His floater is a better shot than his jumper. No one is saying otherwise. 

 

All Jay and I and others are saying is this Hawks team isn't going to won consistently unless they can shoot better. We all know it's an uphill battle cuz guys like Dre and JC and DJ can't actually shoot. Our hope was that they could elevate on wide ass open shots but I guess that's too much to ask. 

 

 

[Wretch]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

I have yet to see Dre do great things with a defense that is trying to stop him.  His best games have been ones where he gets lots  of open looks like last game against Boston or the Miami series last year.  I think Hunter is a valuable part of our team but I have seen nothing making me think his offense is scalable up to a 2nd option where defenses are scheming to shut him down.

I wouldn't argue the part in bold.  In fact, I said at a minimum he'll be a core piece to a very good team.  Does he have the aggressiveness to push himself to be better?  That's debatable.  Can he improve his ball handling? This is also debatable.

Will he become more aggressive and improve his ballhandling while being relegated to the 3rd option on isolation or otherwise nailed to the perimeter waiting on CNS?  That's not debatable to me and is really all I'm saying.  

Also, teams are targeting Trae, PnR, and DJ.  Alternatively, they're looking for Bogi on CNS.  I don't think there will be much opportunity to judge exactly what he can do against dedicated pressure.  Admittedly he's been mid and inconsistent at best, but he has also been injured...and now that he's healthy, he's 3rd string.

We're not doing this merry-go-round again AHF! lol Let's come back here when the dust settles on him.  Though, tonight is going to be a good opportunity for some real commentary on him.

[Peoriabird]

Yall keep on hoping these shots fall  and be disappointed when they don't all you want...sounds like the definition of insanity but hey...to each its own

[REHawksFan]

FYI since some people still don't seem to get it:

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Yall keep on hoping these shots fall  and be disappointed when they don't all you want...sounds like the definition of insanity but hey...to each its own

Top 5 teams in 3pt% are up in their series 3-1 or 4-0.  Only teams up without being in the top in this category are Lakers who are still outshooting Memphis and Knicks who are competing in a 90s throwback tourney with Cleveland and are an extreme outlier (up 3-1 while averaging only 98 pts per game).   

The reality (again, whether certain poster choose to accept it or not is irrelevant) is that teams who shoot well from 3 have a decided advantage in the playoffs.  

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Yall keep on hoping these shots fall  and be disappointed when they don't all you want...sounds like the definition of insanity but hey...to each its own

We could follow your lead and just put our collective heads in the sand and pretend that there's some other path to winning that doesn't involve shooting better. But that seems fairly fruitless. 

The only logical path to winning even one more game is shooting better or hoping Boston suddenly falls into the mother of all shooting slumps themselves.   

[Diesel]

32 minutes ago, Wretch said:

We need a poor man's Klay more than a poor man's Kahwi if that makes more sense.

First and foremost (because I couldn't quote it) all players play a role and therefore all players are role players.   So that term doesn't hold any meaning.   Secondary scorer?  Maybe.

Hunter is never going to be a poor man's Klay.  He doesn't shoot well enough, move without the ball naturally enough, or have the killer instinct. 

He could model his game after Kahwi a lot easier.   And I don't know why we can't use a poor man's Kahwi?

 

[Diesel]

23 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Our hope was that they could elevate on wide ass open shots but I guess that's too much to ask. 

I think we are again trying to evaluate and forecast for guys to be in a system that may not look anything like what we have now.   This is still Nate's system with Quin's teaching behind it.  Because he's smart, Quin can work with any system... but in my mind, I can't help but think that whatever Quin decides on running when he finally implements his system will look a lot different than this.   So it leaves us to talk about the abilities of a player... and not what they have done in this system.

 

[REHawksFan]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think we are again trying to evaluate and forecast for guys to be in a system that may not look anything like what we have now.   This is still Nate's system with Quin's teaching behind it.  Because he's smart, Quin can work with any system... but in my mind, I can't help but think that whatever Quin decides on running when he finally implements his system will look a lot different than this.   So it leaves us to talk about the abilities of a player... and not what they have done in this system.

 

I get all that.  But we aren't talking about what we need to do for next year because A) we'll have plenty of time for that as early as tomorrow; B) we'll have a whole new roster at that point; and C) we'll have a new system to figure out.  

This discussion is about is there any way the Hawks can compete and win this year in this system with these players in this series.  And the answer, as far as I can tell, is shoot better.  That's what they have to do win win.  A game. A series. Whatever.  If they don't shoot better, they won't win a dang thing.  

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I get all that.  But we aren't talking about what we need to do for next year because A) we'll have plenty of time for that as early as tomorrow; B) we'll have a whole new roster at that point; and C) we'll have a new system to figure out.  

This discussion is about is there any way the Hawks can compete and win this year in this system with these players in this series.  And the answer, as far as I can tell, is shoot better.  That's what they have to do win win.  A game. A series. Whatever.  If they don't shoot better, they won't win a dang thing.  

I agree with you 100%... maybe 110% if there is such a thing.  Our downfall, especially in the last game was the period of missing shorts in the 2nd/3rd.. and those moments where dumb foul/turnovers stole our momentum in the 4th.  I no longer believe that Boston is the best team in basketball or in the east.  I believe that they are the most talented team playing.   With that, I believe that they are well coached defensively.. but I have yet to see any offensive adjustments.   Game 3, when the three ball stopped falling, they had nothing else to turn to.   Game 5, they were playing strong but not getting separation...Jaylen had to take off the mask. 

Defensively, we have given them some very wide open looks often... but that's not what's killing us.. what's killing us is times when we just don't score.  @Peoriabird believes that we can magically play better defense and it will lead us to winning.   No.. Boston has too many weapons for that.   I would have agreed with him until I saw Marcus Smart nailing 3 pters. consistently... and let me not mention Derrick White.   And they still have Moose on the bench.    No.. we're going to have to play perfectly on offense.  No dumb fouls... and execute.

We will win tonight using that... Boston will have confidence issues and we may take them to 7. 

 

 

[Peoriabird]

A game. A series. Whatever.  If they don't shoot better, they won't win a dang thing

Down 3-1...hello... anybody home? This is not that shooting team so that plan will fail almost 100% of the time. Even your precious Trae Young can't shoot. He is a below average outside shooter period so if he has one of his typical games and Quinn goes all in on the shoot it Trae offense, we are going to lose by 30. Having said that, Trae can have one of those rare games that he use to have and drop 50 but it seems like those days are long gone.

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Ok 1 but no 40% shooter plus Golden State had atleast 3 career 3 point shooters so their offense could rely on 3's. Plus they played defense as well. Again, this should sink in at some point.

 

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Again...Deandre Hunter is a career 35.6% shooter from 3...he is not klay Thompson

In the regular season on these same shots (Wide Open per NBA.com):

• Trae - 38.6%
• Bey - 46.0%
• Hunter - 36.9%
• JC - 32.7%
• Bogie - 43.4%
• DJ - 38.3%

In the playoffs:

• Trae - 38.9% (+0.3% on increased volume)
• Bey - 33.3% (-12.7% on minimal volume)
• Hunter - 26.3% (-10.6% on increased volume)
• JC - 20.0% (-12.7% on increased volume) 
• Bogie - 33.3% (-10.1% on slightly decreased volume)
• DJ - 16.7% (-21.6% on similar volume)

Trae is the only guy on the team that has increased (slightly) his make % in the playoffs compared to regular season.  Everyone else is down double digits. BUT only Hunter and JC are down on increased volume.  If the team would or could just hit at the same rate they did in the regular season (again, we are just talking about wide open shots so this is not a product of Boston defense), they would be up in the series.  They are getting quality looks.  They just aren't making them.

And you can continue to argue that we shouldn't expect them to, but I'd counter that if they can do it over 75-80 games in the regular season, they are capable.  

 

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

A game. A series. Whatever.  If they don't shoot better, they won't win a dang thing

Down 3-1...hello... anybody home? This is not that shooting team so that plan will fail almost 100% of the time. Even your precious Trae Young can't shoot. He is a below average outside shooter period so if he has one of his typical games and Quinn goes all in on the shoot it Trae offense, we are going to lose by 30. Having said that, Trae can have one of those rare games that he use to have and drop 50 but it seems like those days are long gone.

You are so freakin dense I'm not sure why I bother even talking with you.  Good grief.  

[JayBirdHawk]

We need both OFFENSE and DEFENSE! Hit shots, make stops - there are times when we are not doing either.....that's a losing recipe.

[Peoriabird]

I know you think the playoffs are like a regular season game in December but they ain't. Hope you understand this or at the very least you should

[REHawksFan]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

I know you think the playoffs are like a regular season game in December but they ain't. Hope you understand this or at the very least you should

Just keep putting your head in the sand.  See how far that gets ya. 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We need both OFFENSE and DEFENSE! Hit shots, make stops - there are times when we are not doing either.....that's a losing recipe.